ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[bruceq]

Actually the 6,000 year idea {7,000 yr creative days] was long before Christendom. Even Josephus mentions it as it was an ancient Jewish idea. And since Jews wrote the Bible well...who knows. Find out when it happens.

[Witness]

59 minutes ago, bruceq said:

You quoted from a religious website that is number 1,061 in ranking. I am sure you can do better.

Test:

 

(Philippians 4:8) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. 

You are looking at the rating of a site with at least 50 translations of the bible?  That is stopping you from reading scripture?    Use your own Bible, the one that Russia has banned.  If your eyes are open to the trampling of God's people, you will see it in whatever Bible you choose to read.  

The elder body "trample" God's anointed ones - they "walk all over" God's Temple priesthood, by expecting obedience, and setting up a false priesthood.  When you discern this, you are to flee.  Matt 24:14,15

NWT -  "And I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one speaking: “How long will the vision of the constant feature* and of the transgression causing desolation continue,+ to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?” 14  So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”  Dan 8:13,14

 

 

[bruceq]

7 minutes ago, Witness said:

 

Only 50 Translations. lol try +200 Translations - http://www.ebay.com/gds/Collecting-Watchtower-Research-Books-/10000000188341192/g.html

(Philippians 4:8) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, bruceq said:

Only 50 Translations. lol try +200 Translations - http://www.ebay.com/gds/Collecting-Watchtower-Research-Books-/10000000188341192/g.html

(Philippians 4:8) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. 

Wonderful ? I see numbers make a big impression on you.  Apparently truth may not.  

How many translations does it take to understand what has happened to God’s Temple?  One.

KJV Ezek 44:8,9 --

8 “In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

9 “And ye have not kept the charge – “guard, charge, function, obligation, service, watch”

of mine holy things - apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness, sanctuary, of God, a sacred place or thing

 but ye have set keepers - to keep, guard, observe, give heed

of my charge - charge, keep, or to be kept, office, ordinace, guard, charge, function, obligation, service, watch

in my sanctuary  - sacred place, sanctuary, holy place, of the temple

for yourselves

 Exactly what is happening in the Watchtower through the elder body.

Those who are to teach and provide spiritual sacrifices are the anointed ones.  I’ve given you the scriptures.  They are the “circumcision” as well as part of God’s Temple.  Rom 2:29; Col 2:11; 1 Cor 3:16,17  To allow others to act as priests in their place transgresses God's sanctuary.  There's two sides of this abomination.  As God's sanctuary, foreigners are trampling it.  As God's priests, others have taken their place.  

Now, read the NWT. It pales in comparison, it lacks power and understanding of the abomination existing in God’s Temple. 

 

 

[bruceq]

46 minutes ago, Witness said:

 

 

(Philippians 4:8) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. 

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, bruceq said:

Actually the 6,000 year idea {7,000 yr creative days] was long before Christendom. Even Josephus mentions it as it was an ancient Jewish idea. And since Jews wrote the Bible well...who knows. Find out when it happens.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Josephus did not mention it, because it was not an ancient Jewish idea. If you have anything on that I'd appreciate knowing where it comes from. And if Josephus had said it, we would not have gotten it from him, anyway. The first known mention of the possibility of man being on the earth exactly 7,000 years appears in Pseudo-Philo which would have been written about the same time as the Greek Scriptures, and this would make it contemporaneous with Josephus and Philo, but neither one wrote the work. They think it might have started out in Aramaic/Hebrew but is only known in Latin, although a Hebrew translation was made of the Latin. Of course, this has nothing to do with the length of the creative days.

It says the following in chapter 28, in a kind of "creation" account ( http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/bap/bap44.htm ):

• Hearken now, ye that dwell on the earth, even as they that sojourned therein prophesied before me, when they saw this hour, even before the earth was corrupted, that ye may know the prophecies appointed aforetime, all ye that dwell therein. 7. Behold now I see flames that burn not, and I hear springs of water awaked out of sleep, and they have no foundation, neither do I behold the tops of the mountains, nor the canopy of the firmament, but all things unappearing and invisible, which have no place whatsoever, and although mine eye knoweth not what it seeth, mine heart shall discover that which it may learn (or say). . . . And when the foundation was laid, I beheld, and from that spring there was stirred up as it were a boiling froth, and behold, it changed itself as it were into another foundation; and between the two foundations, even the upper and the lower, there drew near out of the light of the invisible place as it were forms of men, and they walked to and fro: and behold, a voice saying: These shall be for a foundation unto men and they shall dwell therein 7000 years. 9. And the lower foundation was a pavement and the upper was of froth, and they that came forth out of the light of the invisible place, they are those that shall dwell therein, 1 and the name of that man is <Adam>. And it shall be, when he hath (or they have) sinned against me and the time is fulfilled, that the spark shall be quenched and the spring shall cease, and so they shall be changed.

The Talmud from sometime around the 2nd to 5th centuries also mentions 6,000 years with chaos during the last thousand, but this was based on the length of the entire creative week, not that each day was 7,000 years long, but usually that all things were literally created at the beginning in literal days, but that this time count started from creation, and since then "a day is 1,000 years" so that every thousand years since then has been part of the creative week starting with Sunday, so that the 7th millennium is a rest day, a sabbath.  (Babylonian Talmud Rosh Hashana 31a and Sanhedrin 97a). I think there are about 222 years left before "Year 6000" in the common A.M. Jewish calendar. An entry in Wikipedia called "Year 6000" gives some of the sources.

In the book "Life of Adam and Eve" the book Testament of Adam is quoted where the end and  was prophesied by Adam in chapter 3, verse 5. A book on the subject words it like this:

• Next Adam predicts the Flood because of the daughters of Cain 'who killed your brother Abel because of passion for your sister Lebuda, since sins have been created through your mother, Eve.' The end of the world will be 6,000 years after the Flood.

That was actually a so-called Christian book, at least it was redacted in all the known versions to be a Christian book, and the end of the world referred to Christ coming. In the Ethiopic version the 6,000 year prediction for Christ is missing.

• Furthermore, thou must know, O my son, Seth, behold a Flood shall come and shall wash the whole earth because of the children of Kâyal (Cain), the murderer, who slew his brother through jealousy, because of his sister Lûd. And after the Flood and many weeks the latter days shall come, and everything shall be completed, and his time shall come and fire shall consume everything which is found before God, and the earth shall be sanctified, and the Lord of Lords shall walk about on it." A

Although the 6,000 year prophecy is gone, there is a mention in the verses leading up to it where God tells Adam that even though he sinned and would have to die that God would come down to earth in flesh and die on the Cross in five and one-half days to save him.

• And besides [these things] God spake unto me, saying, "Be not sorrowful, O Adam, for thou didst wish to become a god and didst transgress my command. Behold, I will stablish thee, not at this present, but after a few days." And again He spake unto me, saying, "I am God Who made thee to go forth from the Garden of Joy into the earth, which shall shoot forth thorns and brambles, and thou shalt dwell therein. Bend thy back, and make thy knees p. 247 to totter in old age, and I will make thy flesh food for the worms. And after five days and half a day¹ I will have compassion upon thee, and shew thee mercy in the abundance of my compassion and my mercy. And I will come down into thy house, and I will dwell in thy flesh, and for thy sake I will be pleased to be born like an [ordinary] child. And for thy sake I will be pleased to walk in the market place. And for thy sake I will be pleased to fast forty days. And for thy sake I will be pleased to accept baptism. And for thy sake I will be pleased to endure suffering. And for thy sake I will be pleased to hang on the wood of the Cross. All these things [will I do] for thy sake, O Adam." To Him be praise, and majesty, and dominion, and glory, and worship, and hymns, with His Father and the Holy Spirit from this time forward and for ever and ever. Amen.

In several apocalyptic books (non-canonical) a day is 1,000 years, so this is interpreted to mean that Christ would appear 5,500 years after Adam. Again, however, these were parts of predictions about Christ's first appearance and second appearance. The Ethiopic probably was trying to work out a second appearance of Christ within 500 years of Jesus' birth. It was not about 7,000 year creative days. The 6,000 years of mankind with a 1,000 year millennial reign idea began popping again up in many places after Christopher Columbus used it, and later Martin Luther and many other reformers.

[bruceq]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Josephus did not mention it, because it was not an ancient Jewish idea. If you have anything on that I'd appreciate knowing where it comes from. And if Josephus had said it, we would not have gotten it from him, anyway. The first known mention of the possibility of man being on the earth exactly 7,000 years appears in Pseudo-Philo which would have been written about the same time as the Greek Scriptures, and this would make it contemporaneous with Josephus and Philo, but neither one wrote the work. They think it might have started out in Aramaic/Hebrew but is only known in Latin, although a Hebrew translation was made of the Latin. Of course, this has nothing to do with the length of the creative days.

It says the following in chapter 28, in a kind of "creation" account ( http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/bap/bap44.htm ):

• Hearken now, ye that dwell on the earth, even as they that sojourned therein prophesied before me, when they saw this hour, even before the earth was corrupted, that ye may know the prophecies appointed aforetime, all ye that dwell therein. 7. Behold now I see flames that burn not, and I hear springs of water awaked out of sleep, and they have no foundation, neither do I behold the tops of the mountains, nor the canopy of the firmament, but all things unappearing and invisible, which have no place whatsoever, and although mine eye knoweth not what it seeth, mine heart shall discover that which it may learn (or say). . . . And when the foundation was laid, I beheld, and from that spring there was stirred up as it were a boiling froth, and behold, it changed itself as it were into another foundation; and between the two foundations, even the upper and the lower, there drew near out of the light of the invisible place as it were forms of men, and they walked to and fro: and behold, a voice saying: These shall be for a foundation unto men and they shall dwell therein 7000 years. 9. And the lower foundation was a pavement and the upper was of froth, and they that came forth out of the light of the invisible place, they are those that shall dwell therein, 1 and the name of that man is <Adam>. And it shall be, when he hath (or they have) sinned against me and the time is fulfilled, that the spark shall be quenched and the spring shall cease, and so they shall be changed.

The Talmud from sometime around the 2nd to 5th centuries also mentions 6,000 years with chaos during the last thousand, but this was based on the length of the entire creative week, not that each day was 7,000 years long, but usually that all things were literally created at the beginning in literal days, but that this time count started from creation, and since then "a day is 1,000 years" so that every thousand years since then has been part of the creative week starting with Sunday, so that the 7th millennium is a rest day, a sabbath.  (Babylonian Talmud Rosh Hashana 31a and Sanhedrin 97a). I think there are about 222 years left before "Year 6000" in the common A.M. Jewish calendar. An entry in Wikipedia called "Year 6000" gives some of the sources.

In the book "Life of Adam and Eve" the book Testament of Adam is quoted where the end and  was prophesied by Adam in chapter 3, verse 5. A book on the subject words it like this:

• Next Adam predicts the Flood because of the daughters of Cain 'who killed your brother Abel because of passion for your sister Lebuda, since sins have been created through your mother, Eve.' The end of the world will be 6,000 years after the Flood.

That was actually a so-called Christian book, at least it was redacted in all the known versions to be a Christian book, and the end of the world referred to Christ coming. In the Ethiopic version the 6,000 year prediction for Christ is missing.

• Furthermore, thou must know, O my son, Seth, behold a Flood shall come and shall wash the whole earth because of the children of Kâyal (Cain), the murderer, who slew his brother through jealousy, because of his sister Lûd. And after the Flood and many weeks the latter days shall come, and everything shall be completed, and his time shall come and fire shall consume everything which is found before God, and the earth shall be sanctified, and the Lord of Lords shall walk about on it." A

Although the 6,000 year prophecy is gone, there is a mention in the verses leading up to it where God tells Adam that even though he sinned and would have to die that God would come down to earth in flesh and die on the Cross in five and one-half days to save him.

• And besides [these things] God spake unto me, saying, "Be not sorrowful, O Adam, for thou didst wish to become a god and didst transgress my command. Behold, I will stablish thee, not at this present, but after a few days." And again He spake unto me, saying, "I am God Who made thee to go forth from the Garden of Joy into the earth, which shall shoot forth thorns and brambles, and thou shalt dwell therein. Bend thy back, and make thy knees p. 247 to totter in old age, and I will make thy flesh food for the worms. And after five days and half a day¹ I will have compassion upon thee, and shew thee mercy in the abundance of my compassion and my mercy. And I will come down into thy house, and I will dwell in thy flesh, and for thy sake I will be pleased to be born like an [ordinary] child. And for thy sake I will be pleased to walk in the market place. And for thy sake I will be pleased to fast forty days. And for thy sake I will be pleased to accept baptism. And for thy sake I will be pleased to endure suffering. And for thy sake I will be pleased to hang on the wood of the Cross. All these things [will I do] for thy sake, O Adam." To Him be praise, and majesty, and dominion, and glory, and worship, and hymns, with His Father and the Holy Spirit from this time forward and for ever and ever. Amen.

In several apocalyptic books (non-canonical) a day is 1,000 years, so this is interpreted to mean that Christ would appear 5,500 years after Adam. Again, however, these were parts of predictions about Christ's first appearance and second appearance. The Ethiopic probably was trying to work out a second appearance of Christ within 500 years of Jesus' birth. It was not about 7,000 year creative days. The 6,000 years of mankind with a 1,000 year millennial reign idea began popping again up in many places after Christopher Columbus used it, and later Martin Luther and many other reformers.

I'll try to do some research on it. It has been about 30 years since I have on this particular subject and I don't remember and am quite busy with pioneering and stuff. The Watchtower I believe has not said anything about it since about 1987 questions from readers if I recall...but nothing since so it is not probably an area of interest anymore anyway. Although they never have said it was untrue or changed. {Although the type/antitype may come to mind here}  But like I said we may never know if it is true until we get there and perhaps not even then since the Bible does not directly mention it. And it dosent' actually matter to gain everlasting life. But it is fun to research anyway. I do remeber it going back over 2,000 years to time of Philo {a Jew} and he got it from somewhere earlier and ill try and find some resources for that. {Point is it's origin was not Christian but predated Christianity as Philo died in 50 C.E.]

[bruceq]

1 hour ago, bruceq said:

I'll try to do some research on it. It has been about 30 years since I have on this particular subject and I don't remember and am quite busy with pioneering and stuff. The Watchtower I believe has not said anything about it since about 1987 questions from readers if I recall...but nothing since so it is not probably an area of interest anymore anyway. Although they never have said it was untrue or changed. {Although the type/antitype may come to mind here}  But like I said we may never know if it is true until we get there and perhaps not even then since the Bible does not directly mention it. And it dosent' actually matter to gain everlasting life. But it is fun to research anyway. I do remeber it going back over 2,000 years to time of Philo {a Jew} and he got it from somewhere earlier and ill try and find some resources for that. {Point is it's origin was not Christian but predated Christianity as Philo died in 50 C.E.]

Actually I wrote a book [never published] dealing with the over 500 versions of flood legends all around the world and the connection that God used a comet [Like the flood comet mentioned by Whinston] to bring about the Flood ,very extensive book about 10 years ago and I believe I do recall some mention of a 7,000 year calendar in some ancient civilizations from thousands of years ago that were associated with the Flood of Noah's day that came from their stories as told throughout eons of time. The book is called "The Harbinger of Doom - Evidence of a Global Flood Caused by the Progenitor of Encke's Comet". I think there is mention in some of my research books on the Flood I have hundreds so it may take a while to find something. Here is a photo of my Flood library:                Footnote: Did you know the origin of the word "Disaster" means "evil star" - di = evil and aster = star interesting hey !!! 

[The Librarian]

@JW Insider please do some splitting off of separate yet interesting topics.... your thread has been hijacked. ;-)

[Witness]

4 hours ago, bruceq said:

(Philippians 4:8) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. 

I don’t think you realize what Phil 4:8 is telling you.  What is of serious concern, righteous, chaste, lovable, well-spoken of, virtuous and praise-worthy  to God, appears to be off the table; that being,  God’s justice and righteousness.  ? 

 

That this is a rebellious people,
Lying children,
Children who will not hear the law of the Lord;
^ Who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
And to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us right things;
Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
^1 Get out of the way,
Turn aside from the path,
Cause the Holy One of Israel
To cease from before us.”  Isa 30:9,10

 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

Footnote: Did you know the origin of the word "Disaster" means "evil star" - di = evil and aster = star interesting hey !!! 

Spiritism and astrology have had in influence on a lot of our words. Speaking of "influence," consider how the word "influenza" was also a reference to how a certain illness was due to the "influence" of bad stars. And speaking of "consider," the word comes from Latin for concerning oneself "with the stars" con=with + siderial=star, although that one could have been made up by some "lunatic" (influenced by the moon). And even "chronology" is from the god Saturn who was "Chronos" in Greek, the god of time.  Ultimately we even get words like martial from Mars, and more obvious ones like mercurial, saturnine, capricious (Capricorn), jovial (Jove/Jupiter), venerial (Venus)

Love your library.

[bruceq]

50 minutes ago, Witness said:

(Philippians 4:8) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. 

Don't leave plenty of emotes to use yet.