Does the Governing Body live on-campus or off-campus?

Space Merchant · February 20, 2018

3 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

I wasn't the one to use John out of context....could you please provide me proof that the pastors of my church live lavish lifestyles or live in billion dollar compounds like the governing body?

You did use John 2:16 somewhat out of context for you stated the following: And you take John 2:16 out of context which show's you have very little clue as to how some churches raise money, where as in John people were ripping poor people off by selling sacrificial animals at higher prices. As if the group only take in money to benefit themselves only, more so over that of their church, resources for ministering, to people their congregation and the like, for that is what money donations should be used for, to benefit first the church and the people of the church (congregation).

Religious Church organizations are known to take in money, which is true, what what makes or breaks it for some people is how the money is used and what is it used for mostly, hence why I explained John 2:16 fully because any man who goes into a church and or is head of a church to use money donations for personal things more than the church itself, its members and resources, than that would reflect of those who sold items in the Temple, and how Jesus responded to such. One doesn't have to be part of a religion to understand the difference between churches using money for personal gain vs churches who use money to push their teachings via minister and keep their church alive.

As for your other claim, why should I be in the position to know what the JW church leaders live or use the money?

It has already been said that these men stay at the homes of Christian followers of the faith and or in other branches that is connected with the Watchtower, which seems to be the case because Jehovah's Witnesses are everywhere, and hospitality is now alien to them when it comes to sharing resources and or even their homes with another brother/sister of the faith, after all Christians should be hospitable.

What you need to answer for is your claims for you stated that:

I'm asking you for proof:

For you said

[1] They stay at 5 star hotels and take first class flights

[2] You also stated that they live lavish lives, do pertaining to your claim, do they only benefit themselves and never the church or the members? let Alone using time, money and resources for the ministry (Great Commission)?

[3] You mentioned billion dollar compounds, are we talking about houses, mansions and or homes? If you consider the Watchtower HQs then that doesn't count because not only they reside there, but other members of the faith reside there too.

Because I see a lot of all-talk, but no-show right now. If this was a claim/response type of debate, the one phrase that could only be brought up for ones saying claims without giving ample evidence, that person is considered to be "Burned and Rinsed".

So the chance is given, you stated those things, so I advise you to show proof, not just to me, but to others whom you openly say this to on this thread.

3 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Now that we've established that it's ridiculous to claim the governing body, aka gods of the watchtower live lavishly, could jw's please stop spreading lies that all of Christendom's pastors, teachers etc. live lavish lifestyles, the pastor's at my church drive minivans, live in small homes, etc and don't have anywhere near the wealth the governing body has.

And since a jw bought it up, what is so sinful about raising money for charity through a church building?

Nothing has been established because you have not provided any proof to your claims, you only bring up things you said, but no proof to back it up. I was able to say what a Prosperity Gospel is about as well as provide proof to my claims, so what you claim shouldn't be that hard to bring proof of since you deemed as such true.

You stated that JW brought up raising money for charity is sinful through a church building. My question to you is are aware of how some Christians view doing commerce inside of a church regarding charity, i.e. having items and sell inside a church, fundraising by selling various things such as food inside of a church, etc?

First I will say this right off the bat: There is no problem with Christians who give generously, their money and or resources, but it doesn't always make it to charitable causes. In addition, some Christians do take issue with the idea or action of buying/selling of items, food, etc inside a place of worship (Temple/Church), for "She" [The Church] is only a place of worship and teaching, as well as anything regarding to advance the missionary of which Jesus told the early Christians to do. Which includes us also, therefore, spreading the gospel.

Believe it or not, there are Christians within Christianity who have not done any sort of charity work inside of their church in an attempt to show people that they are giving, show off, and the like because anyone can show off that they "care" by doing such. Others just tend to stick to what they can give. I am a Unitarian, and out of most of the Unitarian denominations, some do not do commerce of any sort inside a church, ever, and there is a obvious reason for that, as for the Primitive Christianity folk, not only they avoid doing commerce in a church, they do not go to charities of other churches, taking it a step further. If we must do something, all we do is donate money support the ministry, in addition, we have a choice to donate to charities online or elsewhere, but never done so in a church at all, plus there are some charities that are a bit sketchy and is to be avoid (The Red Cross Organization being an example).

The most important thing Christians consider as "charitable" is by expressing their faith and their love for God to others, for they consider teaching the scriptures as the greatest charity work, especially when it comes to Christians who do not have much, and the only thing they give is what the bible says, so in a way, ministering via missionary work, meeting people who want to know about God, spreading the gospel is considered as a charity, for such benefits not just you, but others, spiritually.

For this is what the Son of God says: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, - Matthew 28:19

That is considered important, and that is what the Son of God told his disciples to do, in turn, their students, and eventually us, who take into account scripture, for even a poor man who knows the bible can spread the gospel, for he knows how it means to him, and the joy in brings in doing so, and I heard quite experiences that I can share regarding that, especially in the Caribbean, as well as my family's home, Belize.

Other then that, some Christians may or may not even do charities inside of their churches anyways because what they will think about is the merchants in the temple, they will probably go to a park or something to do such, and other times, some church churches do not do literal charities at all, but they are not stopped from donating their money to some charities with what they have.

But yeah, you are open to do whatever you want, but to mix commerce and the church is something that is not just a JW thing, for it is somewhat of an issue with those who do it vs those who don't do it. Aside from that, there is no problem with giving to others, for we as Christians are to be open and hospitable to give to people, be it of our faith and or those outside of the faith.

So to bash on one faith who don't do charities inside of their church is being hypocritical, if other churches adhere to what took place in what John 2:16 says: Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.

So that is the reason why some consider it as something wrong. if you got a problem with it, then you have half several groups of Christendom to deal with including the JWs.

As for the Jehovah's Witnesses, aside from their spreading of the gospel, they are known for relief efforts, which helps out members of their church as well as others who may be in need, an example would be Mexico, Puerto Rico and Texas, being the recent areas hit by disasters.

So let's see what the bible says:

For scriptures, other than the verses in John that was previously mentioned, what comes to mind regarding the selling (or buying) in the church are these verses Jeremiah 7:11, Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17, and Luke 19:45-46, which describe incidents when Jesus cleansed the Temple. When He saw the kinds of activities that were being carried on in His Father’s house, He became very angry. Clearly, this was not what the Temple was built for as well as Yahweh's reaction to such regarding the Temple that bares His name.

John 2:16 points to these verses:

Matthew 21:12-13

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(12) And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

(13) He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

Note: What is written is of the Laws that Jesus and the Jews adhere to which applies to the Temple (the church), and what is written is to be followed. Read up the first 5 books in the Bible to understand such Laws, or simply look at Deuteronomy for an idea at least of such written laws; Laws of the Jews.

Mark 11:15-17 (18-19)

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(15) And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

(16) And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple.

(17) And he was teaching them and saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”

Mark informs us about what is taking place afterwards in verses 18 and 19

(18) And the chief priests and the scribes heard it and were seeking a way to destroy him, for they feared him, because all the crowd was astonished at his teaching.

(19) And when evening came they went out of the city.

Luke 19:45-46 (47-48)

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(45) And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold,

(46) saying to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of robbers.”

We see here that what Jesus only does is teaching in the temple, nothing more, for teaching benefits the spread of the gospel and obviously, just like in Mark, those who were plotting against him to have him killed.

(47) And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people were seeking to destroy him,

(48) but they did not find anything they could do, for all the people were hanging on his words.

Now in the Old Testament, we have what God the Father saying something similar.

Jeremiah 7:11

Evil in the Land

(11) Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the Lord [YHWH].

One would bring up the argument that they do charities inside the church as means of worship, however, we see in Jesus' case that the only thing that done inside the temple is just pure worship or anything regarding to advance such worship, nothing in regard to buying and or selling, no matter how you try to sugar coat it.

So, such is not limited to just JWs, but other Christians as well, I hope this time you learn of why some Christians have a stance on this, for they consider something of "wrong doing" there is always a "reason why they think this is".

Lastly, there are indeed examples in scripture of donating though or as they say it in, tithing - Malachi 3:10; Deuteronomy 26:12; Matthew 23:23, another example would be how like The Levites contributed to the Aaronic priesthood, in turn supporting them. It is percentage given or paid as tribute, most for means of religious purposes, but it isn't always required of Christians.

So in short

Christians can donate to charities and the like, but it isn't a good idea to sully the "head of the church" by buying and selling inside a church, period. In addition, no one is stopping you from donating money that benefit the ministry and or teaching of the gospel, as for resources, they can easily be gathered to be donated to whichever group you choose or to the very brothers or sisters in your church who is in need.
Christians at times do not have anything to give, for they consider teaching the word of God just as Jesus have as a best charitable work.
As Christians, it is vital for us to take into account scripture, and not ignore parts of it, especially in regards to Jesus and or his Father, in addition to the examples left behind by those who preached the gospel.

I got more to say, but I guess I'll just leave it at that.

Matthew9969 · February 21, 2018

So please provide proof that the pastors at my church

6 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Ridiculous is, as ridiculous does. You just solved your first ridiculous word puzzle!

Â

Megachurches and certainly, the VATICAN has MUCH MORE, get over it! Your plot didnÂ’t work!

Â

So please provide proof that the pastors at my church live as lavishly at Benny Hinn or your governing body. And I don't attendÂ mega church.

Matthew9969 · February 21, 2018

Why do kingdom halls have collection boxes and their conventions credit card collection machines? The watchtower just sold over 1 billion dollars worth of realestate, why do they need to collect credit card numbers?

Matthew9969 · February 21, 2018

Other religions divulge their worth...why does the Gods of the watchtower hide their worth?

Space Merchant · February 21, 2018

2 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

So please provide proof that the pastors at my church

So please provide proof that the pastors at my church live as lavishly at Benny Hinn or your governing body. And I don't attend mega church.

I never asked for your church, nor do I care of it right now, because it does not pertain to what needs to be met here. What I care about right now is your claims. I asked you for proof of your claims regarding JW leaders going to 5 star hotels, living lavish lives, and the like because right now I see a guy who is talking a lot, but lacks sufficient proof to any claim he (you) had made, dancing around questions to something said isn't best for one's resolve. This should be a lesson for you, for if you say something, back it up, or remain silence and not say anything at all that would put you in a predicament to possibly lash out. For I roll, is that any claims made there has to be proof for it.

But I will ask you again, you can use the Benny Hinn example because anyone who speaks about Benny Hinn, will give proof of Benny Hinn, it is not that hard. But right now I will say it again, regarding your claims about the lifestyle, the hotels, taking 1st class flights from point A, B to C, etc, can you prove proof to what you said?

And no, I don't have a governing body or anyone that works for me if you want to go that route, so that claim of yours "your governing body" had already been kicked out the door before it even set foot in space merchant airspace. As for Benny "Healing Hands" Hinn and pals, obvious you can see I am against a prosperity gospel that is seen as a doctrine to follow for pastors of this day and age, so no, not a fan of him. So 2 birds with one stone to whatever you are trying to sell.

2 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Why do kingdom halls have collection boxes and their conventions credit card collection machines? The watchtower just sold over 1 billion dollars worth of realestate, why do they need to collect credit card numbers?

Ok, but last I checked, JWs, who originated from and like from most Restorationist (or Christian Primitivism) do not "buy/sell" inside their churches, they have boxes, plates, websites and or "go fund me" and or something to collect donations, some people use bags or bottles (glass or plastic). In my country, they'll use wrap towels to make it look like a large cloth to collect money should one choose to donate to a church. Again, tithing if you want to call it that. None of them are doing what Jesus got angry over, and I hope you take the scriptures seriously that I provided, share it with your pastor if you want to because I guarantee most mainstream Christians do not really look that those passages, evident in Christendom today because they sugar coat it for there is a major difference to doing charitable works vs making a temple of worship a place of commerce for we know which one Jesus and is Father would not be so pleased with, as my above examples and scripture already made that obvious.

Do they sell real-estate in their churches though and does the money go towards advancement of the Great Commission or not? Since you did say the following: The watchtower just sold over 1 billion dollars worth of realestate, why do they need to collect credit card numbers?

2 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Other religions divulge their worth...why does the Gods of the watchtower hide their worth?

You'd be surprised, so religions do not make their worth known, some choose to do so, some do not. Even us Unitarians, some within our denominations have that choice to disclose their worth, while others do not. Ironically, this does not only happen in religious institutions, but others within the educational systems, as well as business, examples being, I use to work for Barclay's Capital, a financial/business institution, somewhat of a part timer. They hide their real worth/revenue because of their competition being other banks, they have a choice to keep private and or make public of what they generate, no one is forcing them to make private things public vice versa for anyone else.

So this claim here is a weak argument, thus you do not have the high ground at all.

Lastly, a bit off-topic, I advise you go read the bible (whichever you use) because what I am seeing from you is a person who has a strong disdain for not other Christians faiths, just this one, and you egg on claims that you can't even prove, which pretty much shows in the way you comment. Learn what hate is, and learn to cease such from yourself or you can ask your pastor in your church.

1 John 2:9,11; 4:20; 3:15

As a guy from CSE Christian community, it is normal to call out people on this regardless of their denomination for when such is very obvious it has to be said, and I will do it here too if need be, you are not the first nor the last.

That being said:

When making claims, be prepared to show proof, be it brief or detailed so it supports what is brought up by one's very mouth and or message. Making claims and not showing anything for what is said, not only makes one a suspected lair, but shows one pushing dishonesty out of spite to either get and or entice a reaction (trolling) and or trying to sound right without nothing to show for it (empty handed). The best thing one can do is remain silent or don't say anything at all that would put one in the spotlight, and may result in someone getting "burned and rinsed", as they say at the corner for any dishonesty that is present.

Space Merchant · February 21, 2018

10 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Ridiculous is, as ridiculous does. You just solved your first ridiculous word puzzle!

Megachurches and certainly, the VATICAN has MUCH MORE, get over it! Your plot didnÂ’t work!

Â

I agree, ridiculous is, as ridiculous does, for no claims have been established which contradicts whatÂ Matthew9969 who stated the following that:Â Now that we've established that it's ridiculous to claim the governing body, aka gods of the watchtower live lavishly, could jw's please stop spreading lies that all of Christendom's pastors, teachers etc. live lavish lifestyles, the pastor's at my church drive minivans, live in small homes, etc and don't have anywhere near the wealth the governing body has.Â

For he still lacks sufficient proof to even establish any conclusion to said claims be made previously, thinking no one has seen what he said. A fun fact is all Christians will speak of pastors of Christendom who do live lavish lives, but you know, people like to say things and make it seem trueÂ Â and he brings up his church when asked for proof of the JWs claims.

Anyways

The Mega churches and the Vatican break bank on the daily.

Mega Churches average between 2,000 to 40,000 members per attendance, either weekly or monthly, these are just estimated numbers so it may be more. The thing is, I attended a Mega Church once in my life, the only reason was because I and a friend were taking care of someone and that someone just happen to not tell us where she was going until we got there (it's a trap), and that left me in a position to go to one. The experience was "meh" because I knew the scriptures and I didn't feel like being in that place, and I had woman next to me screaming JESUS while clappingÂ every 15 seconds, had the feelingÂ like I was at a football stadium indoors.

All jokes aside, from memory, they had a lotÂ seats, possible more i some other area of the church, that day it was packed so probably 10,000+, and every hour or so there was a man or woman with collection boxesÂ walking around and people just throw money at them.

This is a list of the ones in the United States alone:Â https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megachurches_in_the_United_States

Megachurches alone tend to have a lot of members day in and day out so money is generated via tithing rather quickly, now if combined, they pretty much surpass.

Now the Vatican is another monster on its own, it is worth likeÂ $10 billion to $15 billion or more:Â http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html

As for their members, the head count is hard to find, it varies, but from pictures alone and any recent event they hold, be it in where the Vatican is located, in some part of Europe, the US, etc, there will always be a flood of people that crowds around a single man, who is surrounded by lethal guards that tend to be underestimated by their "clown-like clothing".

What I do know is that in the US, the pope drew in a lot of people, and the event he host had thousands upon thousands of people in attendance, while you have other Christians who appear in opposition to counter the event, for they didn't attend for the pope, they attended to tell people to get away from what is going on.

The thing is when it comes to Christianity itself, what is outside of Non-Trinitarianism surpasses Non-Trinitarianism I say this because of the reaction of most Christians who do not know what Non-Trinitarian Christianity is as well asÂ the fact that it is put a small coinÂ compared to massive movement of mainstream Christianity, who often shoot down anything or anyone who teaches something different from them.

Matthew9969 · February 21, 2018

Could you please explain why you keep insisting all of Christendom churches are mega churches....I sure don't belong to a mega church and the church I attend isn't worth billions of dollars like the watchtower is or these other mega churches, why do you keep insisting all churches are mega churches and all pastors live like Hinn?

And you guys have yet to explain why they had to build a highly secured luxury compound and still don't provide one dime in charity.

So about the life and times of the gods of the watchtower: this is just a small example.

http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/no-expense-spared-governing-body-members-do-fly-business-class

Of course they don't live lives like the likes of Hinn, or Olsteen or other fake preachers. But still everything is provided for the gods of the watchtower, they are the key holders to the millions of dollars they control.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/204568/wealth-watch-tower-bible-tract-society-uk

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/43014/watchtower-34th-biggest-company-ny

So I would like you to back up your insistence that all churches of Christendom are mega churches and their leaders live like the pope or Hinn/Olsteen, etc.

TrueTomHarley · February 21, 2018

Jehovah's Witnesses are absolutely unique in that they live the Word and present it worldwide. Aspects of it presented nowhere else they broadcast: the Name, the paradise earth, no immortal soul, no Trinity, nuetrality, and so forth.

Any Witness looks around himself and see abundant evidence that whatever funds they have anonymously donated have been put to good news.

But if you hate the message, you will hate the organization that facilitates its spread, ad leave no stone unturned in denigrating it. It is no more complicated than that.

Nonetheless, the 'wealth of the clergy class' can be overstated. They are not all that way. Prosperity gospel preachers notwithstanding, most live pretty much like the parishioners they serve. Even at the top of, say - the Methodist world, I am not aware of any unspeakable lolling about in luxury. I doubt it compares to those at the top of business corporations.

The GB does not have to live like hippies on a commune. Branch facilties are comfortable. They get room and board. But they are dormatories . Nice dormatories, to be sure but still dormatories.

The striking difference is that they recieve no salary, and perhaps more stiking still, no funds amassing for retirement, like the 401K's that are everywhere else. When Ray Franz took off over a dispute of doctrine, he recieved a settlement of about 10K, I think, and the same people that bellyache about wealth bellyached how he had worked for a pittance.

TrueTomHarley · February 21, 2018

For example, I just read that Billy Graham died today at 99, the grandpa of the TV evangelists.

I don't recall any financial abuse with him, and his final circumstances appear to be reasonably modest. When he traveled, it was not via VW Beetle and he didn't clip the Pennysaver, but they conducted operations as would anyone else on tour - I can recall Carlin or someone making fun of his expensive suits, but it is a cheap shot and everyone knows it - even he himself, probably, who was just doing what comedians do.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · February 21, 2018

An old but interesting book to read is "The Gospel According to Billy".

He had quite the mechanized operation, but he was loved by EVERYBODY .... because he paid list price for everything, and paid C.O.D.

None of this "wait 120 days or four billing cycles..."

When his operations moved to Charlotte, NC about a dozen years ago, it created a real estate boom.

I often think that if he did not have a square jaw, and a Lion's mane .... but looked and sounded like Danny Divito, if he would have been as well received.