Will only Jehovah's Witnesses be saved?

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, Anna said:

That is a shame.  A "people for God" or "ark of salvation" does have scriptural backing though.

True. By the way, this will be a very "nuanced" point, and I'm afraid a lot of us will find good reason to disagree. Some might even think this part of the discussion is dangerous. But surely it is just as dangerous to toy with blasphemy and idolatry which might be done in the way that some think of the organization and the need to "put faith in [the] organization."

*** w18 January p. 13 par. 5 Pleasant Unity and the Memorial ***

• By ‘testing whether we are in the faith.’ To do that, we do well to ask ourselves: ‘Do I really believe that I am part of the only organization that Jehovah has approved to accomplish his will?

*** w79 3/1 p. 18 par. 21 Faith in Jehovah’s Victorious Organization ***

• But, steadfastly, devoted Witnesses have kept their faith in Jehovah’s organization. They know which one of all organizations on earth the Almighty God has used . . . . Is there any cause for us to lose faith in Jehovah’s visible organization . . ?

*** w54 11/1 p. 667 par. 19 Walking in Good Behavior ***

• Do we have strong faith in Jehovah’s organization? Then loyally and actively support it. Your regular attendance . . .

I know that "Gone Away" responded to the same point by comparing how one might have faith in their spouse, for example. But, of course, it would still be wrong for a spouse to eclipse our relationship with Jehovah, or if we were to attribute salvation to our spouse.

And while there is scriptural backing for a "people for God" or "ark of salvation" perhaps it is only our own materialism --leaning on our own understanding-- that keeps us from seeing that Jehovah and Jesus might not see these man-made denominational boundaries the way we ourselves do. It's true that the material, physical nation of Israel represented a picture of what would be true of Christianity. But I'm pretty sure we need to look more closely at how those pictures were only shadows of the things to come. Israel was organized as a physical nation, and the Law was physically written in stone, but in Christianity there would be a new covenant written in hearts. (Jeremiah 33 and Romans 2:29):

• (Romans 2:29) 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.

• (2 Corinthians 3:3) . . .inscribed not with ink but with the spirit of a living God, not on stone tablets but on fleshly tablets, on hearts.

• (Jeremiah 31:33, 34) 33 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.” 34 “And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin.”

• (Jeremiah 4:4)  4 Circumcise yourselves to Jehovah, And remove the foreskins of your hearts,. . .

 

I find it instructive that the Bible's contains admonition against inadvertently "worshipping" the sun or the moon, and it is not about bowing down to them formally and following some specific rituals common to sun worshipers. Instead it is about how one might be secretly seduced by their beauty and magnificence. I also think it's instructive that basic religion as described here in Job also includes exactly the primary points that Jesus said were worth more than the Mosaic Law.

• (Job 31:14-34) 14 What can I do when God confronts me? What can I answer him when he calls for an accounting? . . . 16 If I refused to give the poor what they desired Or saddened the eyes of the widow; 17 If I ate my portion of food alone Without sharing it with the orphans; . . . 19 If I saw anyone perishing for lack of clothing Or a poor man with nothing to cover himself; . . .  21 If I shook my fist against the orphan When he needed my assistance in the city gate; . . . 24 If I put my confidence in gold Or said to fine gold, ‘You are my security!’ . . .  26 If I saw the sun shining Or the moon moving in its splendor; 27 And my heart was secretly enticed, And my mouth kissed my hand in worship of them; 28 Then. . . I would have denied the true God above. 29 Have I ever rejoiced over the destruction of my enemy Or gloated because evil befell him? . . . 32 No stranger had to spend the night outside; I opened my doors to the traveler. 33 Have I ever tried to cover over my transgressions, like other men, By hiding my error in the pocket of my garment? 34 Have I been in fear of the reaction of the multitude, Or have I been terrified by the contempt of other families,. . .

It's about hospitality, loving one's enemies, loving justice, kindness, looking after orphans and widows, and looking after the hungry, thirsty, and even the homeless in their tribulation. When persons are without clothing we give them something to wear. These are all things that mirror Jesus' words and the book of James about what motivates true Christian religion and on what basis we will be judged. (I included 33 and 34 only because they show that in "true religion" when thinking of our own accounting before Jehovah, we do not hide our errors, but humbly admit them, even as an organization involved in an important teaching ministry.)

I mention this in advance because I also think it is sacrilege to claim, out of context, that giving a glass of water to one of Christ's brothers means treating the 'faithful and discreet slave' with proper respect. In its Biblical context, it was part of the discussion that we should all be motivated to do good for everyone, and that even those non-followers of Jesus who just happen, therefore, out of kindness to treat Christ's followers kindly, will be counted as Christ's followers. This is another example that might bear on the original question. We can claim that something in 33 C.E. changed all that, so that everyone had to join the Christian congregation from that point on, and start giving "glasses of water" to the anointed, but this is far from the point Jesus was making. It seems he was really saying that Christianity could be imputed even to those who didn't know they were Christian:

• (Matthew 25:37-40) 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

In our current WTS view, we avoid the idea that just any Christian might actually find Christ's brothers hungry and feed them, because this contradicts our current view of the "faithful and discreet slave." This must be why we ignore quote and focus on the "drink of water" instead.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

these people are not scattered among various denominations as wheat

We had no problem imagining them scattered among various denominations as wheat from the year 200 until the late 1800's. You must have the idea that there was a point in time when this changed. We like to think it must have been around 1919 when the "slave" was to have been appointed. A true Christian might have begun to notice the religion that began teaching no hellfire, and no Trinity at that time, but it wasn't the largest non-Trinitarian denomination (although I think it was quickly to become the largest non-Hellfire denomination). But remember that these teachings, although I think they were most important, were not the primary focus in 1919. The primary focus was a false prophecy about 1925, and that false prophecy remained the primary focus from 1919 right up into the beginning of the year 1925. And it was still heavily infected with the "cult of Russellites" even according to the admissions of our own publications. Don't get me wrong, there was plenty to agree with, and there were plenty of beautiful expositions of Scripture to be found in the Watchtower, the Seven Volumes, the Harp of God, and various booklets. Most of the beautiful things were not unique to the Bible Students, though. MOST of the focus at the time was on maggots and worms as "Gone Away" has referred to some of these teachings.

I'm not saying that Jehovah didn't bless the work of those brothers who continued looking for gems within the Bible Student movement. We have to consider whether any true Christian would (or should) have even considered joining the Bible Students between 1919 and 1925.

So at what point did Jehovah stop finding wheat scattered among various denominations. At what point did Jehovah start declaring that all wheat must now be found within the confines of a physically defined denomination?

Again, I must explain that I think we are better off and safer as Christians associating with the brotherhood that allows us to practice Christianity in the best way we know how. We can have "faith" that the best place for us is among Jehovah's Witnesses. But as you said:

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Surely they know that in the end each will render an account for themselves to God, individually?

[Anna]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I'm afraid a lot of us will find good reason to disagree. Some might even think this part of the discussion is dangerous. But surely it is just as dangerous to toy with blasphemy and idolatry which might be done in the way that some think of the organization and the need to "put faith in [the] organization."

Personally I am not comfortable with some of the comments the GB have made regarding faith in the organization, apparently putting it on the same level as faith in God. I do have a problem with that. On the other hand, if this reasoning is made in good faith, and has the effect of unifying the brothers, then as mentioned previously, that is the opposite of fragmenting, and fragmenting has been blamed as the cause of disunity and an excuse for Christendom.

A few broadcasts ago, (March?) one of the GB members in his talk, implored the friends to "trust the Governing Body". I thought to myself, well why not? You've got to trust someone right?  Of course, first and foremost we trust God, but because we trust God, we also trust that as long as we, as individuals, stick to Bible principles, he (Jehovah) will make sure we will be OK spiritually. On top of that, surely the GB know that trust has to be earned. You cannot trust someone if they have given you a reason not to in the past. I have not had such an experience to date. There are things I do not agree with, but they are not fundamental. I would like to see more transparency, but at least I have seen glimpses of improvement on that front. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

We had no problem imagining them scattered among various denominations as wheat from the year 200 until the late 1800's.

No we didn't, but as I explained, there was nowhere for them to gather. They were on their own. Stuck in their denomination, but usually they either fought against it, disagreed with it, or left it. By that, we judge they must have been the wheat.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

So at what point did Jehovah stop finding wheat scattered among various denominations. At what point did Jehovah start declaring that all wheat must now be found within the confines of a physically defined denomination?

Who is to say that Jehovah ever stopped finding wheat among the denominations and gathering them together with the other wheat within the confines of a physically defined denomination? I would assume that once true worship was restored, (or maybe at some point during the restoration) that was the point at which the wheat started to be gathered together into a group ..

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

 in the end each will render an account for themselves to God, individually

and the Governing Body know that too.

I will address your other point about the glass of water later....

[JW Insider]

52 minutes ago, Anna said:

that was the point at which the wheat started to be gathered together into a group ..

You might be putting the cart before the horse. The "harvest" is when the wheat is pulled at the end of the system when the wheat is gathered into wheat bundles and the weeds are gathered into weed bundles:

• (Matthew 13:28-30) . . .The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

• (Matthew 13:37-43) . . .“The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.

 

Officially, we start the harvest closer to 1914, but it seems more scriptural here to apply it to the time when the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father, the time when the angels collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and pitch them into final destruction. The wheat and weeds grow together until the harvest, until the angels bundle them. Therefore, if there are still any seeds being planted, and if there are any more Christians growing, then we cannot be in the harvest yet. Growing occurs UNTIL the harvest. (And the corollary: if the harvest began in 1914, then there has been no planting, watering, and growing since 1914.)

While we wish we could apply more of these in Matthew 13 to 1914 and 1919, and we once did, notice how much trouble we now have trying to fit it all to 1914/1919:

 

*** ws13 7/15 pp. 13-14 pars. 13-17 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***

• Third, weeping and gnashing. After the angels bundle the weeds, what happens? Speaking about the condition of “the weeds,” Jesus says: “There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.” (Matthew 13:42) Is that happening right now? No. Christendom is part of the harlot described in Revelation chapter 18. Even today, Christendom says about herself: “I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.” (Revelation 18:7) She still feels she is in control and even tries to be “a queen” with power over political leaders. So false Christians represented by the weeds are still boasting today. They have not started to weep. . . .
• 15 Fourth, pitched into the furnace. What will happen to the bundles of weeds? The angels “will pitch them into the fiery furnace.” (Matthew 13:42) This means that they will be completely destroyed. So the ones who belonged to those organizations teaching false religion will be destroyed during the final part of the great tribulation, Armageddon.—Malachi 4:1.
• 16 Fifth, shining brightly. Jesus ends his prophecy by saying: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” (Matthew 13:43) When and where will they shine brightly? This part of the prophecy will be fulfilled in the future. And it will be fulfilled in heaven, not on earth. (See endnote.) We will now discuss two reasons for understanding the prophecy this way.
• 17 First, when will this happen? Jesus said: “At that time the righteous ones will shine.” Evidently, the expression “at that time” is connected to the event Jesus had just described, that is, the time when the weeds are ‘pitched into the fiery furnace.’ That happens during the final part of the great tribulation. So the anointed must “shine as brightly as the sun” at that future time as well. Second, where will this happen? Jesus said that the righteous ones will shine “in the kingdom.”

In the official view, the harvest began over 100 years ago, and yet we are still planting and watching the field grow.

[Anna]

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In the official view, the harvest began over 100 years ago, and yet we are still planting and watching the field grow.

 

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The wheat and weeds grow together until the harvest, until the angels bundle them. Therefore, if there are still any seeds being planted, and if there are any more Christians growing,

That's my fault. I should have clarified that the wheatlike Christians are supposed to only be the anointed.

Could this whole parable perhaps refer to two groups (weeds and wheat) rather than individual people? And to an event or situation? The first event or situation being that throughout centuries wheatlike Christians were intermingled with weeds (the growing together). Then in the last days, the second event or situation began (the harvest) where there was a separation of those groups who were wheatlike and those who were weeds. In other words the true church was identified and the false church was identified and they were separated from each other (harvested therefor  no longer growing together and intermingled). Then the third event or situation in the future (Armageddon) where the weeds, that have  been harvested (for a 100 years already) will be bundled and burned, and the wheat (that has been separate from the weeds for a 100 years already) will be taken into the storehouse (heaven).

This scenario only works if we assume the wheatike Christians are the anointed, and are counted as a group, rather than individuals.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

I should have clarified that the wheatlike Christians are supposed to only be the anointed.

I have a letter from the WTS dated in 1922 which answers a question sent in by a Bible Student about the possibility of more persons becoming a part of the "anointed class." The answer simply clarifies that the "door was closed" to new persons of that class in 1881, and that the only persons who might have still been chosen were only chosen in the rare event that someone who had already been chosen in 1881 had proven unfaithful after 1881 but before their final sealing.

This must have already been producing a "generation" problem even as early as 1922 which was 40 years after 1881. (The proofs for the 1881 date were confirmed by quoting some points from Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures.") That same claim about the door closing in 1881 was later used for 1935, along with the same claim of only unfaithful anointed being replaced after 1935. This is no longer stated this way, although there is still a clear level of discouragement associated with new ones who feel they might be of the anointed class.

But, yes, the harvest is primarily the anointed.

*** w13 7/15 p. 10 par. 4 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***

• Speaking about the wheat and the weeds, Jesus said: “Let both grow together until the harvest.” This command reveals that from the first century until today, there have always been some anointed wheatlike Christians on earth. That conclusion is confirmed by what Jesus later told his disciples: “I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matt. 28:20) So anointed Christians would be protected by Jesus all the days leading up to the time of the end. However, since they were overgrown by weedlike Christians, we do not know for certain who belonged to the wheat class during that long period of time. However, some decades before the start of the harvest season, the wheat class became discernible.

Those "some decades before the start of the harvest season" were then called the "harvest season," a 40 year period from 1874 to 1914, then quickly changed by Rutherford to mean a 40-year period from 1878 to 1918 (a doctrine that lasted through most of Knorr's leadership, too.) It was much more recently that we readjusted the harvest season to a much longer period starting in 1914, sometimes adding "and especially since 1919." Obviously, most of the anointed counted among us have come into the fold after 1919. So we still have a harvest season that has been simultaneous with the growing season.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Could this whole parable perhaps refer to two groups (weeds and wheat) rather than individual people? And to an event or situation? The first event or situation being that throughout centuries wheatlike Christians were intermingled with weeds (the growing together). Then in the last days, the second event or situation began (the harvest) where there was a separation of those groups who were wheatlike and those who were weeds.

I think something like that is possible. After all, there is at least one flaw in my presentation that tries to use the idea that "synteleia" in Greek more often refers to a "final destructive end" not a drawn-out ending or "conclusion." The flaw is that Jesus spoke in another illustration of begging the master of the harvest to send out more harvest workers. Therefore even if the event itself is a singular final end, the harvest work (preparation for harvest) could mean sending people into the field for a longer, extended period of time. This is in the same sense that someone might be involved in election work for months or years before the actual election.

So, that event or situation, if that were the solution, would likely be identified with the time of cleansing of the organization, which has variously been identified prior to 1914, then 1914, sometimes 1918, 1919 (most often), and further hints of "cleansing" have been identified with 1926 (when the elder arrangement was abolished), 1971 (when it was re-instated), etc. etc. One could go back to 1931 or 1935 again, or Splane's famous 1992 date for the end of 1914 generation prior to the overlapping extension.

[Shiwiii]

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have a letter from the WTS dated in 1922 which answers a question sent in by a Bible Student about the possibility of more persons becoming a part of the "anointed class." The answer simply clarifies that the "door was closed" to new persons of that class in 1881, and that the only persons who might have still been chosen were only chosen in the rare event that someone who had already been chosen in 1881 had proven unfaithful after 1881 but before their final sealing.

This must have already been producing a "generation" problem even as early as 1922 which was 40 years after 1881. (The proofs for the 1881 date were confirmed by quoting some points from Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures.") That same claim about the door closing in 1881 was later used for 1935, along with the same claim of only unfaithful anointed being replaced after 1935. This is no longer stated this way, although there is still a clear level of discouragement associated with new ones who feel they might be of the anointed class.

But, yes, the harvest is primarily the anointed.

Every time I hear of this "closing the door" from the WT it reminds me of Matthew 23:13

¹³ “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

 

 

[Shiwiii]

29 minutes ago, tromboneck said:

that just shows your woeful lack of spiritual discernment

Really? hmmm, ok....from someone who "likes" their own post to increase their status........

 

Please indulge me then with your expertise 

[Space Merchant]

@Shiwiii The doors will eventually close, to not realize what is to come very soon only shows that people are sleeping on this matter as if it is water under the bridge. The very reason why there is time for people, for such is indeed Life or Death, this has not changed, and it is known that God has not changed on what his purpose and will entails for the righteous and meek, and what is to come for those who do not adhere to what he requires, what his Word says or his Laws.

The very reason those who are aware are vigilant, enduring, sacrificing, and the list goes on.

Simply being good, is not going to cut it, for there is a lot that is required in building and maintain faith, just as a bodybuilder takes care of his or her body, to maintain muscle and the like by means of exercise, rest and nourishment, the same applies for faith and adhering to what the bible says.

[Space Merchant]

@tromboneck Unfortunately, people of mainstream Christendom do not take the bible seriously. They think all this adding Levite Laws, these celebrations that have nothing to do with God, man made traditions into the church, etc, further proves the seriousness is not there, for simply being good is not enough, and it most certainly will not help if we have the mainstream turning churches into circuses and molding things of the world into said churches.

 

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

@Shiwiii The doors will eventually close, to not realize what is to come very soon only shows that people are sleeping on this matter as if it is water under the bridge. The very reason why there is time for people, for such is indeed Life or Death, this has not changed, and it is known that God has not changed on what his purpose and will entails for the righteous and meek, and what is to come for those who do not adhere to what he requires, what his Word says or his Laws.

The very reason those who are aware are vigilant, enduring, sacrificing, and the list goes on.

Simply being good, is not going to cut it, for there is a lot that is required in building and maintain faith, just as a bodybuilder takes care of his or her body, to maintain muscle and the like by means of exercise, rest and nourishment, the same applies for faith and adhering to what the bible says.

I agree with your statement here, but it is NOT the decision of any religious organization or any man as to when and who it shuts on. This is the part that stuck out in my mind and why it reminded me of that scripture. 

Think about the actual context of Chapter 23 of Matthew. Who was this chapter written about? Do we have "scribes" and "Pharisees" today? 

 

 

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I agree with your statement here, but it is NOT the decision of any religious organization or any man as to when and who it shuts on. This is the part that stuck out in my mind and why it reminded me of that scripture. 

Think about the actual context of Chapter 23 of Matthew. Who was this chapter written about? Do we have "scribes" and "Pharisees" today? 

Last I recall, the Watchtower only have stated that time is indeed short and the end is very near, but even outside of the Watchtower, people are aware that end time and tribulations is and will be upon us and just as in the days of Noah, the doors will be shut and at that time, it will be too late. You yourself have to realize that, for that is pretty much the common conclusion to which people who adhere to scripture will recognize and be aware of. Speaking about Noah, when the door to the Ark have been shut, it was shut by God himself (Genesis 7:16, 17) and clearly when the people who were doing what they do (Luke 17:27) became suspect, it was already too late. The same can be said for Sodom and Gomorah whereas as to their counterpart, Nineveh, wised up when God sent Jonah.

Indeed, there are false ones out there, some far worse than others, who derive people away from what the Bible says, this is also said in Luke 11:42. Among them would be pastors, teachers, even church goers themselves who push something that is not of the Bible, those who not only follow God's Laws, but such ones who preach and attempt to convince others not to follow God's Laws, in addition, that of which Jesus had entrusted the church to do. We have such ones who apply Traditions of Men into the church, for if I last recall, I will take an example of a pastor you brought up before, Jeff Durbin, known as the Hipster Pastor by some, also known as a voice actor for one of the most violent video games out there that resulted in the whole ESRB rating. The current churches of our day teach that Jesus Christ is God, when the bible says otherwise, they practice things that are not biblical yet call themselves Christians, the list goes on and on when it comes to false prophets, but out of the fold, there are those who strive to do what is true and seek what is true and for that reason true Christians do not mess around with such ones, but should any falsehood be made against the latter, a correction is to be made.

At the same time, one has to be have to be very mindful of those who actually attempt to seek what the truth is or attempt to follow it because any misstep can put you before God's throne for judgement, the very reason by my stance is pretty much neutral and not being gullible to misconceptions.

Furthermore, false ones are deemed hypocrites or make claims of 100% inspiration when they do something other than what the bible says, or that of the first church of the early Christians.

For there is  big line between those who stray away from actually attempting to seek what is true and on the other side there are those who do their best to follow what the bible says while seeking truth, just as there is no middle ground here, it is in the same regard for both life and death.

[Shiwiii]

12 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You yourself have to realize that,

You YOURSELF have to realize the context of what I wrote concerning the "letter" that JW Insider has a copy of. 

What does that letter state? Here is a quote from JW Insider 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have a letter from the WTS dated in 1922 which answers a question sent in by a Bible Student about the possibility of more persons becoming a part of the "anointed class." The answer simply clarifies that the "door was closed" to new persons of that class in 1881, and that the only persons who might have still been chosen were only chosen in the rare event that someone who had already been chosen in 1881 had proven unfaithful after 1881 but before their final sealing.

 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That same claim about the door closing in 1881 was later used for 1935,

Who closed that door? Oh yeah, the wt, as stated in the letter. 

 

17 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Indeed, there are false ones out there, some far worse than others, who derive people away from what the Bible says, this is also said in Luke 11:42. Among them would be pastors, teachers, even church goers themselves who push something that is not of the Bible, those who not only follow God's Laws, but such ones who preach and attempt to convince others not to follow God's Laws, in addition, that of which Jesus had entrusted the church to do.

I quite agree.

 

18 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I will take an example of a pastor you brought up before, Jeff Durbin,

please refresh my memory, when did I quote/refer to this Jeff Durbin? I'm not saying I didn't, just want to make sure we are on the same page. 

 

 

How can you write so much but yet not address what I mentioned? If you are going to respond to my post,  respond!  

 I think, like another has posted, that you try and write so much that the real topic bets buried under your ramblings about nothing relevant to the topic discussion.