ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[bruceq]

4 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

About the interpretation of Dan. 4? Daniel, of course.

Good we agree then  that Daniel did NOT know the interpretation since Daniel said it was hidden in his time and NOT revealed until time of the end.  Dan. 12:4 !!!!!

How long are the “seven times”? They could not be merely seven years as in Nebuchadnezzar’s case. JESUS indicated the answer when he said that “Jerusalem [a symbol of God’s rulership] will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) “The appointed times of the nations,” the period during which God allowed his rulership to be “trampled on by the nations,” are the same as the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4. This means that the “seven times” were still under way even when Jesus was on earth.

The Bible provides the way to determine the length of those prophetic “seven times.” It says that three and a half “times” equal 1,260 days, so “seven times” equal twice that number, or 2,520 days. (Revelation 12:6,14) Applying the prophetic rule “a day for a year,” the 2,520 days represent 2,520 years. Therefore, the “seven times,” or 2,520 years, would end in October 1914.—Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6.

Now finally since you believe in the chronology of Christendom against 1914 then do you celebrate Christmas also on December 25th  ????????

[JW Insider]

55 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Good we agree then finally that Jesus knew more than Daniel did. 

How long are the “seven times”? They could not be merely seven years as in Nebuchadnezzar’s case. Jesus indicated the answer when he said that “Jerusalem [a symbol of God’s rulership] will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) “The appointed times of the nations,” the period during which God allowed his rulership to be “trampled on by the nations,” are the same as the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4. This means that the “seven times” were still under way even when Jesus was on earth.

This was already covered previously in this thread, but I'll be happy to answer this again, too. Although I know that Ann also knows the Bible's answer to this topic, and it's always great to see anyone take the side of the Bible's advocate, here.

Yes we agree that Jesus knew more than Daniel did. And Jesus actually gives us the ACTUAL length of the "appointed times of the nations."

Here's a quote from the NWT of Luke 21:24, where Jesus spoke of the appointed times of the nations to trample Jerusalem, followed by a place where Jesus attached a specific length of time to these "appointed times of the nations."

• (Luke 21:24) 24  . . . .into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
• (Revelation 11:2) . . .to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.

In case anyone missed the connection, let's try a paraphrase of both of them:

• (Luke 21:24) 24  . . . .into all the nations; and Jerusalem, the holy city, will be trampled underfoot by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
• (Revelation 11:2) . . .to the nations, and Jerusalem, the holy city, will be trampled underfoot by the nations until 42 months, 1260 days, are fulfilled.

Of course, you could argue that one said "Jerusalem would be trampled underfoot by the nations"  and the other one said "the holy city would be trampled underfoot by the nations."

• (Nehemiah 11:1) . . .to live in Jerusalem, the holy city, . .
• (Isaiah 52:1) . . .Clothe yourself with strength, O Zion! Put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city!. . .
• (Daniel 9:16) . . .may your anger and wrath turn away from your city Jerusalem, your holy mountain; . .

Of course, you could argue that one said the city would be "trampled on by the nations" and the other said the city would be "trampled underfoot by the nations."

But the Watch Tower's Kingdom Interlinear Translation puts that argument to sleep. It's the exact same word. For ease of lookup I'll include the Strong's Dictionary reference for each

• Luke 21:24 -- g3961   πατέω pateō  : to trample, crush with the feet
• Rev. 11:2   --  g3961   πατέω pateō  : to trample, crush with the feet

In fact, the NWT prior to 2013 prided itself on always using a consistent English word or term to translate specific Greek words wherever they came up, but not here. There is not even a cross reference here, and no explanation in any Watch Tower publication about why this verse in Revelation 11:2 echoes Luke 21:24.    Revelation 11:2,3 is also an excellent citation for showing how 3.5 times = 42 months = 1,260 days, which could have been used in the "Bible Teach" book that was just quoted. But notice how this verse is always avoided for making that point. And Revelation 12:6,14 is used instead.

So one of the verses says there will be appointed times for the Gentiles trampling the holy city, and the other says that those appointed times were 42 months, or 1,260 days. The Watchtower must avoid this verse for any purpose except to apply it to a time from December 1914 as literal days so that they end in the spring of 1918. And what do we say happened in December 1914? Good question. Nothing! It just happens to be where 1,260 days lands if we work backwards from the spring of 1918!

 

 

[BroRando]

3 hours ago, bruceq said:

ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from Christendoms point of view.

Rev. 6:4 "Take peace away from the EARTH" 

Here! Here!  

1914 Problematic? Not at all!

By Brother Rando, August 7 in Bible Discussions 

 

[JW Insider]

18 minutes ago, bruceq said:

I personally believe that JW have the Scriptural point of view.

On everything important, I agree.

 

18 minutes ago, bruceq said:

No reason to argue I just think that interpretational authority belongs to the Governing Body not to any in Christendom or any bloggers trying to figure it all out.

I'm not claiming that we need to interpret it. After all the Bible already gave the interpretation. As you said before: "No need for another interpretation but thanks anyway." [Emphasis added.]

If the Bible says that it already gave us the interpretation, don't we risk adding to or taking away from the words of the scroll if we decide that we need another interpretation? And it can also lead to all kinds of scriptural problems and inconsistencies, which so far no one has responded to with scripture. (Changing the topic isn't the same thing, and, fwiw, I don't celebrate Christmas.) A mere claim that "the Governing Body" has all interpretational authority is probably fine for most of us. But when the scriptures demand that we search them and not accept "a letter as though from us" on the topic of the parousia, but suggests that we use "reason" my own conscience tells me that I have a responsibility to follow the Bible as best I can and follow the lead of the Governing Body as best I can, too. Wherever there might be a difference, however, I think we know who we should obey.

• (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) 2 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
• (Luke 21:8) . . .He said: “Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, . . . ‘The due time is near.’ Do not go after them. . .

• (Galatians 1:10) 10 Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave.

• (Acts 5:29) . . .: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.

 

[bruceq]

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

On everything important, I agree.

 

I'm not claiming that we need to interpret it. After all the Bible already gave the interpretation. As you said before:

If the Bible says that it already gave us the interpretation, don't we risk adding to or taking away from the words of the scroll if we decide that we need another interpretation? And it can also lead to all kinds of scriptural problems and inconsistencies, which so far no one has been able to respond to with scripture. A mere claim that "the Governing Body" has all interpretational authority is probably fine for most of us. But when the scriptures demand that we search them and not accept "a letter as though from us" on the topic of the parousia, but suggests that we use "reason" my own conscience tells me that I have a responsibility to follow the Bible as best I can and follow the lead of the Governing Body as best I can, too. Wherever there might be a difference, however, I think we know who we should obey.

• (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) 2 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
• (Luke 21:8) . . .He said: “Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, . . . ‘The due time is near.’ Do not go after them. . .

• (Galatians 1:10) 10 Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave.

• (Acts 5:29) . . .: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.

   

•  

 

It did not say a letter from us but "appearing" to be from us as someone claiming the interpreatational authority that God gave to those appointed by him.

by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

So the question would be "Who really is the Faithful and Discreet slave"?

[JW Insider]

3 minutes ago, bruceq said:

It did not say a letter from us but "appearing" to be from us as someone claiming the interpreatational authority that God gave to those appointed by him.

by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

Exactly! That's even better!

I know we've discussed the other points here already under their own topic heading.

[JW Insider]

Just now, Nana Fofana said:

 Right?

Wrong?? I guess you'll have to explain what you mean.

 

[Ann O'Maly]

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

Daniel did NOT know the interpretation since Daniel said it was hidden in his time and NOT revealed until time of the end.  Dan. 12:4 !!!!!

In Daniel 4, Daniel said he did know the interpretation of the dream and gave it to the king. Do you not believe him?

Quote

How long are the “seven times”? They could not be merely seven years as in Nebuchadnezzar’s case.

'Times' (iddan) do not necessarily mean years. Cp. Dan. 2:8; 3:5, 15; 7:12. But why could these 'times' not be merely contemporaneous with the historical period? Is there a Scriptural basis for concluding otherwise?

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

JESUS indicated the answer when he said that “Jerusalem [a symbol of God’s rulership] will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24)

Jesus indicated nothing about the '7 times' and made no link with Dan. 4.

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

“The appointed times of the nations,” the period during which God allowed his rulership to be “trampled on by the nations,” are the same as the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4. This means that the “seven times” were still under way even when Jesus was on earth.

'It must be the same.' A mere assertion. Where in Scripture has this conclusion sprung from? Besides, Jesus was speaking in the future tense  - "will be trampled" - i.e. at the time he spoke, what he had in mind hadn't happened yet.

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

The Bible provides the way to determine the length of those prophetic “seven times.” It says that three and a half “times” equal 1,260 days, so “seven times” equal twice that number, or 2,520 days. (Revelation 12:6,14) Applying the prophetic rule “a day for a year,” the 2,520 days represent 2,520 years. Therefore, the “seven times,” or 2,520 years, would end in October 1914.—Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6.

Whoa. We have several knight-jump eisegetical leaps, there. Where is the Scriptural link between the '7 times' of Daniel 4, which Daniel specifically applied to the period of Nebuchadnezzar's madness, and Revelation's '3.5 times' relating to an entirely different apocalyptic vision given about 5 centuries later? And then a random 'day-for-a-year' formula lobbed into the interpretive cauldron - where in Daniel does it say we have to use this for the tree dream?

So to recap:

• Daniel knew the interpretation of the tree dream - it wasn't sealed information
• 'Times' may not mean 'years' anyway, given the word's other usage within the book of Daniel
• There is no Scriptural prophetic connection between Luke 21:24 and Dan. 4
• There is no Scriptural basis for applying some 'day-for-a-year' formula to Dan. 4

And to add to that, the Org has dispensed with typologies that are not explicit in Scripture!

"Where the Scriptures teach that an individual, an event, or an object is typical of something else, we accept it as such. Otherwise, we ought to be reluctant to assign an antitypical application to a certain person or account if there is no specific Scriptural basis for doing so." - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015204

Therefore, as no specific Scriptural basis can be found for interpreting the 'immense tree' in Nebuchadnezzar's dream as the antitype for God's rulership, then we should rightly reject such an application.

 

[bruceq]

We only "reject" if the Governing Body tells us so not some blogger on the internet who thinks they are a spirit-anointed channel of interpretation to the rest of us. LOL. This has already been explained and Daniel said it was hidden until the end. Dan. 12:4.  For further info see JW.ORG not some bloggers LOL You guys are hilarious. Bloggers good grief.   If the Faithful slave says it is so then it is so why should mice tell Jehovah what is true or false. 

I suppose if you and insider were Israelites leaving Egypt you would "complain" about why are we going in the wrong direction. The Chariot goes in the direction Jehovah wants even if we think it is right or wrong.  Look at least try and look at the big picture regarding Loyalty to Jehovah's Organization and its teachings. It is not rocket science really.

Unless of course you two are not really Jehovah's Witnesses then I completely understand. If so please answer the following question:

 Since you believe more in Christendom's chronology against 1914 rather than JW's please inform us if you also celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25th? 

 

The BibleÂ’s answer about 1914 and the Tree Dream

Bible chronology indicates that God’s Kingdom was established in heaven in 1914. This is shown by a prophecy recorded in chapter 4 of the Bible book of Daniel.

Overview of the prophecy. God caused King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon to have a prophetic dream about an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump was prevented from regrowing for a period of “seven times,” after which the tree would grow again.—Daniel 4:1, 10-16.

The prophecy’s initial fulfillment. The great tree represented King Nebuchadnezzar himself. (Daniel 4:20-22) He was figuratively ‘chopped down’ when he temporarily lost his sanity and kingship for a period of seven years. (Daniel 4:25) When God restored his sanity, Nebuchadnezzar regained his throne and acknowledged God’s rulership.—Daniel 4:34-36.

Evidence that the prophecy has a greater fulfillment. The whole purpose of the prophecy was that “people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.” (Daniel 4:17) Was proud Nebuchadnezzar the one to whom God ultimately wanted to give such rulership? No, for God had earlier given him another prophetic dream showing that neither he nor any other political ruler would fill this role. Instead, God would himself “set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.”—Daniel 2:31-44.

Previously, God had set up a kingdom to represent his rulership on earth: the ancient nation of Israel. God allowed that kingdom to be made “a ruin” because its rulers had become unfaithful, but he foretold that he would give kingship to “the one who has the legal right.” (Ezekiel 21:25-27) The Bible identifies Jesus Christ as the one legally authorized to receive this everlasting kingdom. (Luke 1:30-33) Unlike Nebuchadnezzar, Jesus is “lowly in heart,” just as it was prophesied.—Matthew 11:29.

What does the tree of Daniel chapter 4 represent? In the Bible, trees sometimes represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) In the greater fulfillment of Daniel chapter 4, the immense tree symbolizes God’s rulership.

What does the tree’s being chopped down mean? Just as the chopping down of the tree represented an interruption in Nebuchadnezzar’s kingship, it also represented an interruption in God’s rulership on earth. This happened when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, where the kings of Israel sat on “Jehovah’s throne” as representatives of God himself.—1 Chronicles 29:23.

What do the “seven times” represent? The “seven times” represent the period during which God allowed the nations to rule over the earth without interference from any kingdom that he had set up. The “seven times” began in October 607 B.C.E., when, according to Bible chronology, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. *—2 Kings 25:1, 8-10.

How long are the “seven times”? They could not be merely seven years as in Nebuchadnezzar’s case. Jesus indicated the answer when he said that “Jerusalem [a symbol of God’s rulership] will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) “The appointed times of the nations,” the period during which God allowed his rulership to be “trampled on by the nations,” are the same as the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4. This means that the “seven times” were still under way even when Jesus was on earth.

The Bible provides the way to determine the length of those prophetic “seven times.” It says that three and a half “times” equal 1,260 days, so “seven times” equal twice that number, or 2,520 days. (Revelation 12:6,14) Applying the prophetic rule “a day for a year,” the 2,520 days represent 2,520 years. Therefore, the “seven times,” or 2,520 years, would end in October 1914.—Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6.

You see the Truth is simple not from a "blogger" on some internet site. LOL  https://www.jw.org/en/

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

WHEW!

With this posting there have been 14 LOOOOOONG pages of discussion.

I am so, SO glad it has been resolved.

It has absolutely NO application to my life, that I can do anything about, BUT, it's like watching people pick, and pick and PICK at their dandruff ... it's SO hard to look away.

The ONLY "saving grace" is that when on our deathbeds, we will get all this time back, spent discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ... but ONLY to check our emails.

[Arauna]

My sister (who is not a Witness) painted a beautiful painting of all the vices on earth.   And there was a very thick book on the table......   I asked her what it meant...... and she said to me:  "knowledge is a gross sin when it is idolatrous - when knowledge is self-serving."   I totally agreed.

Knowledge (as I said before) is an ego-trip when it does not serve others.  One makes yourself an idol.  The bible says: "knowledge puffs up."   Knowledge in itself puffs up..... it must be combined with the fruitages of the Spirit to produce humility, modesty and the other qualities one needs to truly be benevolent and motivate one to serve others, such as preaching!

Wisdom - is knowledge put to use to serve others and benefit others.   Jehovah in all his knowledge uses this only to benefit others.  Jesus, kept his own opinions to himself and used his wisdom to benefit others .....and only spoke the words which Jehovah gave him to speak.... Perfect obedience - not like humans who like to be on the forefront of knowledge....me included.....  I have to pummel myself and stamp out that ego sometimes.

All this bla-bla about being sophisticated and discuss all matters like intelligent adults, is just a front to self-serve personal ideas and create doubt or division among brothers.   Other churches who visit this website are doing so - not because they want to learn something - but merely to sow doubt......They oppose the slave and their ideas.  They do not care if their ideas are only from one person  - in contrast with our organization which now has committees which approve what goes into every publication.. They are pretending to be angels of light....or maybe believe themselves zealots with 'special insights' from God?

Even if you offer biblical scriptures or even good secular sources - forget it- they are here to teach - not to learn!  They are here with other motives! The thrill is in the fight... or to sow doubt! 

 

By the way - all these terrorist attacks is an escalation - intensifying of the sign.  'Security' of citizens will again be the main subject on lawgiver's minds until the next strikes - I think ...... lol.....  

Russia, Finland, USA, Spain all in a matter of a few days....

 

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

Why am I not more like good @Araunawith his spot-on definitions of knowledge and wisdom? Is he not on track with how Jesus reasons?

Jesus speaks a lot in the gospels, yet very little of what he says would satisfy today's disciples of argument and reason. He spins complex parables which he rarely explains. He diverts from hostile questions by asking counterquestions. He even goes for ad hominem attacks, though, as someone here mentioned, he always connects the attack with the reason, so it is more like character cross-examination in court. Nowhere does he patiently thrash out matters with his opponents. He speaks things for the heart to figure out.

Increasingly, I think he (and Jehovah) do it on purpose, so that those too carried away with Western-style argumentation and proving themselves right will argue themselves right off the deck of the ship before it reaches Port Newsystem.