ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[bruceq]

51 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

 

http://www.livius.org/pictures/israel/gezer/the-gezer-calendar/

 

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/daniel-4-bible-chronology-1914/#?insight[search_id]=27de0db2-f476-4aa1-a186-9fb992bb3358&insight[search_result_index]=11 

ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from Christendoms point of view.

Rev. 6:4 "Take peace away from the EARTH" 

[Arauna]

All visions and dreams in Daniel are prophetic and have to do with the future as I recall - but there is only ONE (according to you), only ONE vision that was only contemporary (7 times) and has no future fulfillment??  ...........very inconsistent .... of Jehovah!

Daniel 12:4  says: But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Seal ALL books and then people will search to understand these prophecies closer to the time of fulfillment.)

We are going in circles - I quote a few  scriptures where it gives a 30 day month and then you say this is not so. You give LONG, complicated  explanations  -  to circumvent what is plainly stated in the Bible -  it is starting to sound more and more like a MYSTERY which only a few can understand - a teaching which Christendom loves so much..

I think all the friends on this blog would not even understand what the sacred secret of the Kingdom is (which Daniel talks about in several verses (Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:13 + 14) if it was not for the slave distributing this knowledge free of charge. 

30 years ago most of Christendom did not accept that the Kingdom is a government but believed that it was a CONDITION of the heart.... and therefore would not accept any calculation of its timing ..... or contemplate when it would start ruling INVISIBLY.

They still do not have an idea when the first resurrection  takes place , and who these people are who have the first resurrection.... they do not give the "least of Christ's brothers" a drink or a kindness BUT rather oppose them. They think they will all go to heaven..... and earth will be DESTROYED.  They do not have a clue of the true purpose of God.... I spoke to them regularly until recently..... 

Well, CHRISTENDOM AND MUSLIMS BELIEVE MANY OF THE SAME THINGS - EVEN THEIR GOD IS JUST CALLED GOD OR LORD.  Their prophecies say that Jesus is coming back in the FLESH, it gives the place where he will descend and what he is going to look like.... He has a sword with which he is going to fight a literal battle - kill the anti-Christ.  It may satisfy your FLESHLY desire to see his flesh.... in the sky - with literal lightning ....and they also believe in immortality of the soul and they are all going to heaven.....and a literal war on the earth which will be lead by Jesus........Matt 24: 23 and 24 tells us there will be false Christs BUT they will not mislead the chosen ones.  Further look at REV 19: 

Rev 19:  Also, the armies that were in HEAVEN were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. ¹⁵  And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword,+ that he may strike the nations with it, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron.+ He treads too the winepress+ of the anger of the wrath of God+ the Almighty. ¹⁶  And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of* kings and Lord of lords.+ ¹⁷  I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds+ that fly in mid heaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, ¹⁸  that YOU may eat the fleshy+ parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders* and the fleshy parts of strong men+ and the fleshy parts of horses+ and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.” ¹⁹  And I saw the wild beast+ and the kings+ of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war+ with the one seated on the horse+ and with his army. ²⁰  And the wild beast+ was caught, and along with it the false prophet+ that performed in front of it the signs+ with which he misled those who received the mark+ of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image.+ While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with Sulphur

To me - these are heavenly armies behind Jesus..... and the 'wild beast and false prophet' are symbols which represent parts of fleshly, worldly humankind. 

This WAR takes place AFTER  Revelation 12: 7-12  (the birth of the Kingdom and authority given to Christ) and satan is thrown out of heaven.    ..... and it happens AFTER a short time left is declared.

I cannot eat your scroll - it is bitter in my mouth - in fact its flavor is false.

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

39 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I cannot eat your scroll - it is bitter in my mouth - in fact its flavor is false.

The shriveled-up old biddy @The Librarian often makes pupils wash their mouths out with pages of her books. 

(Am I overdoing this? Vote it down and I will cease and desist for awhile - one mustn't be an annoyance -, depending upon who votes.)

[JW Insider]

33 minutes ago, Arauna said:

All visions and dreams in Daniel are prophetic and have to do with the future as I recall - but there is only ONE (according to you), only ONE vision that was only contemporary (7 times) and has no future fulfillment??  ...........very inconsistent .... of Jehovah!

Not inconsistent at all. This dream did have a future fulfillment. The Bible said it would. The the Bible said that it did! The Bible says it was fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar. What's inconsistent is that every dream and prophecy in Daniel has ONE fulfillment, but the Watchtower needed this one to have TWO fulfillments to support a tradition.

Besides, I'm the one who believes it has a FUTURE fulfillment, just like the Bible says. But the Watchtower tradition indicates that it could have a PAST fulfillment. Jerusalem is clearly already destroyed at this point, as Nebuchadnezzar is already proudly and haughtily upon upon the vast great "world" empire that he himself has built. So if this dream happens AFTER Jerusalem is destroyed, then it is a prophecy about a time in the past when Nebuchadnezzar already destroyed Jerusalem. Furthermore, if the Watchtower claims that it was fulfilled in 607, and if they truly believe that 539 was an assured, secular, pivotal year, then 607 MUST be a time 2 years before Nebuchadnezzar even became king of Babylon. 

[bruceq]

25 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

 but the Watchtower needed this one to have TWO fulfillments to support a tradition.

What Does Bible Chronology Indicate About the Year 1914?

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MP3

The Bible’s answer

Bible chronology indicates that God’s Kingdom was established in heaven in 1914. This is shown by a prophecy recorded in chapter 4 of the Bible book of Daniel.

Overview of the prophecy. God caused King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon to have a prophetic dream about an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump was prevented from regrowing for a period of “seven times,” after which the tree would grow again.—Daniel 4:1, 10-16.

The prophecy’s initial fulfillment. The great tree represented King Nebuchadnezzar himself. (Daniel 4:20-22) He was figuratively ‘chopped down’ when he temporarily lost his sanity and kingship for a period of seven years. (Daniel 4:25) When God restored his sanity, Nebuchadnezzar regained his throne and acknowledged God’s rulership.—Daniel 4:34-36.

Evidence that the prophecy has a greater fulfillment. The whole purpose of the prophecy was that “people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.” (Daniel 4:17) Was proud Nebuchadnezzar the one to whom God ultimately wanted to give such rulership? No, for God had earlier given him another prophetic dream showing that neither he nor any other political ruler would fill this role. Instead, God would himself “set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.”—Daniel 2:31-44.

Previously, God had set up a kingdom to represent his rulership on earth: the ancient nation of Israel. God allowed that kingdom to be made “a ruin” because its rulers had become unfaithful, but he foretold that he would give kingship to “the one who has the legal right.” (Ezekiel 21:25-27) The Bible identifies Jesus Christ as the one legally authorized to receive this everlasting kingdom. (Luke 1:30-33) Unlike Nebuchadnezzar, Jesus is “lowly in heart,” just as it was prophesied.—Matthew 11:29.

What does the tree of Daniel chapter 4 represent? In the Bible, trees sometimes represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) In the greater fulfillment of Daniel chapter 4, the immense tree symbolizes God’s rulership.

What does the tree’s being chopped down mean? Just as the chopping down of the tree represented an interruption in Nebuchadnezzar’s kingship, it also represented an interruption in God’s rulership on earth. This happened when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, where the kings of Israel sat on “Jehovah’s throne” as representatives of God himself.—1 Chronicles 29:23.

What do the “seven times” represent? The “seven times” represent the period during which God allowed the nations to rule over the earth without interference from any kingdom that he had set up. The “seven times” began in October 607 B.C.E., when, according to Bible chronology, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. *—2 Kings 25:1, 8-10.

How long are the “seven times”? They could not be merely seven years as in Nebuchadnezzar’s case. Jesus indicated the answer when he said that “Jerusalem [a symbol of God’s rulership] will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) “The appointed times of the nations,” the period during which God allowed his rulership to be “trampled on by the nations,” are the same as the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4. This means that the “seven times” were still under way even when Jesus was on earth.

The Bible provides the way to determine the length of those prophetic “seven times.” It says that three and a half “times” equal 1,260 days, so “seven times” equal twice that number, or 2,520 days. (Revelation 12:6,14) Applying the prophetic rule “a day for a year,” the 2,520 days represent 2,520 years. Therefore, the “seven times,” or 2,520 years, would end in October 1914.—Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6.

 

[JW Insider]

49 minutes ago, Arauna said:

We are going in circles - I quote a few  scriptures where it gives a 30 day month and then you say this is not so. You give LONG, complicated  explanations  -  to circumvent what is plainly stated in the Bible -  it is starting to sound more and more like a MYSTERY which only a few can understand - a teaching which Christendom loves so much..

It's not a mystery to a lot of people. You saw it in the Insight book, so it's not a mystery to the persons who put that book together. I'd wager that even AllenSmith hasn't changed his mind about this particular idea. I'm pretty sure you won't find a lot of support for this idea even among your own congregation.

[Ann O'Maly]

3 minutes ago, bruceq said:

In the greater fulfillment of Daniel chapter 4, the immense tree symbolizes God’s rulership.

What 'greater fulfillment? Where does the Bible indicate that Dan. 4 has a fulfillment beyond Nebuchadnezzar. Book, chapter and verses, please.

Besides,

"Humans cannot know which Bible accounts are shadows of things to come and which are not. The clearest course is this: Where the Scriptures teach that an individual, an event, or an object is typical of something else, we accept it as such. Otherwise, we ought to be reluctant to assign an antitypical application to a certain person or account if there is no specific Scriptural basis for doing so." - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015204

So. Where is the Scriptural basis for the immense tree in Dan. 4 to represent Judah and God's rulership?

[bruceq]

5 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

What 'greater fulfillment? Where does the Bible indicate that Dan. 4 has a fulfillment beyond Nebuchadnezzar. Book, chapter and verses, please.

Besides,

"Humans cannot know which Bible accounts are shadows of things to come and which are not. The clearest course is this: Where the Scriptures teach that an individual, an event, or an object is typical of something else, we accept it as such. Otherwise, we ought to be reluctant to assign an antitypical application to a certain person or account if there is no specific Scriptural basis for doing so." - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015204

So. Where is the Scriptural basis for the immense tree in Dan. 4 to represent Judah and God's rulership?

Read more  

see above JW.ORG. https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/daniel-4-bible-chronology-1914/#?insight[search_id]=27de0db2-f476-4aa1-a186-9fb992bb3358&insight[search_result_index]=11    Perhaps you missed the explanation by the Faithful Slave of Jehovah's Witnesses.

The problem with Christendoms teachings is they often want just a verse without looking at the context of the entire Bible. And the fact that there is a faithful slave today to interpret it all for us not some bloggers. LOL 

[Ann O'Maly]

I did miss the explanation about the Scriptural basis for expecting a fulfillment of Dan. 4 beyond what Daniel said it was. All I saw was JW.org's unsubstantiated assertions that it was so. So please, highlight the relevant part that gives Scriptural basis.

[bruceq]

3 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

All I saw was JW.org's unsubstantiated assertions that it was so. So please, highlight the relevant part that gives Scriptural basis.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/daniel-4-bible-chronology-1914/#?insight[search_id]=27de0db2-f476-4aa1-a186-9fb992bb3358&insight[search_result_index]=11

I am not going to read it all to you I am sure you are literate enough to do it yourself. It is not that long unlike some here. LOL. It will take you less than 60 sec. to read it.

[Ann O'Maly]

You already c&p'ed a whole section from JW.org. The answer to my question was not there. Highlight it for me please. Explain in your own words (1 Pet. 3:15). Or are you just blowing smoke?

[Ann O'Maly]

2 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

What?  628 or something?

Nebuchadnezzar succeeded the throne in 605 BCE.