ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Not all of these recommendations were in the publications; some came from the talks during the circuit overseer's visit, and district overseers were encouraged to arrange special talks on the subject of 1975.  The May 1974 Kingdom Ministry was one of the publications that spoke to this issue directly. I'm quoting almost the entire article to give a better sense:

Having said that, and not disagreeing that there was great emphasis then on increased activity, most of the statements you have underlined have been continually said right down to today. If anything, the perception that one should pioneer whenever possible - that it is an activity 'right as rain' - as opposed to a special escalation of preaching, is more pervasive now than it was then.

I recall pushback from the Watchtower to those who wanted to have the faith, but live a 'normal life.' 'How can one lead a normal life in an abnormal world?' was the GB's answer. I think they have won that battle.

What is also true today, and it is a good thing,  is that there is far more emphasis on how one may acquire education 'a la carte,' so as to support oneself 'decently.' These days, after high school, we are encouraged to 'cherry pick' what we will need, rather than let an unbelieving world shovel indoctrination at us to undermine superior moral qualities.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not ignore education. We redefine it.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Having said that, and not disagreeing that there was great emphasis then on increased activity, most of the statements you have underlined have been continually said right down to today. If anything, the perception that one should pioneer whenever possible - that it is an activity 'right as rain' - as opposed to a special escalation of preaching, is more pervasive now than it was then.

That's true in our congregation, too. There are 9 pioneers in our congregation, and we were fortunate to keep 3 for most of the years that I was pioneering.

I thought it was good to get the whole context. There are similarities to now, but there is much less "guilting" into increased activity, and it's positive aspects are emphasized more these days. Pioneering is also much easier now than it was, with more leniency on making your hours, and easier ways to count your hours. These days, I could pioneer with both hands tied behind my back. [pulling a cart!]

The talks on pioneering back then were laced with some of the "guilting" you see in this KM, like: You have health problems? Family responsibilities? No excuse! Let's listen to this experience from [someplace] where a hearing and sight-impaired mother of 10 with no arms and legs got her kids ready for school every day and then put in 8 hours of service. [I'm probably conflating 4 or 5 experiences from that time period, but you probably remember the basic idea.]

Also, the specific counsel on higher education has become MORE practical as time has gone on. For almost 4 decades after this anti-career talk started, it was still quite possible to generally get a good return-on-investment from higher education (at least in the USA). In the last decade, it has become almost impossible. Of course, that's a bit like the 'stopped clock being right twice a day' analogy. If the real reason for the counsel is to keep an institution from attacking your superior morals, that's a very good reason, and it should be highlighted to the extent that it is considered important. Other reasons should also be highlighted to the extent they are considered important.

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

There are similarities to now, but there is much less "guilting" into increased activity, and it's positive aspects are emphasized more these days. Pioneering is also much easier now than it was, with more leniency on making your hours, and easier ways to count your hours

Yes. it was easy to get the frustrated feeling back then that whatever you were doing, it was not enough. And there was always some individual loose cannon somewhere to push that meme even harder. Such motivation has faded, and pioneering increasingly is presented for a more noble reason.

Pioneering is also being redefined, IMO, as a means of keeping ones occupied in kingdom activities of various types, giving ones more avenues to bring their gift to the altar.

As to the hour requirement, it is a concession to the times - an acknowledgment that life is simply so much more aggravating on all counts, and not just that of making a living. An insurance matter, for example, can take hours, even days to unravel, whereas at one time, you simply reached into your pocket and paid it. One now needs help to 'negotiate the health care system,' an indication plain as day that it is no good.

Sometimes in jest, with the new permutations of auxiliary pioneering at special times, I play hardball with the brothers. 'I'll do it,' I tell them, 'when the requirement drops to 15.' If one counts 'online witnessing,' I have special pioneered for many years. But I don't count it.

Having said that, a brother once expressed his annoyance at those who harp that Jehovah's Witnesses stress hours over people. 'The hours are people,'  he said.

[JW Insider]

On 7/2/2017 at 2:05 AM, Gnosis Pithos said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(AD_70)

So, with that in mind, then all matter of prophetic completion would have occurred in 70AD.

Since the prevailing opinion of Matthew 24 is to be viewed of Christ warning in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, once again, we are still here. It took over 400 years to have God hear the cries of the Hebrews in bondage, why has God allowed humanity to be in bondage for over 1600 hundred years. Since the prophetic signs have been fulfilled according to this somewhat ambiguous explanation here. Therefore, a vast amount of scripture would have to be eliminated or rewritten to make this claim. Something that is NOT taught within the Christian congregation because it’s NOT scripturally sound.

OK. I think I got it.

You think that if Jesus was referring to 70 CE, then ALL matters of prophetic completion would have been fulfilled in 70 CE. You think the fact that we are still here shows that Jesus wasn't referring to 70 CE. If he was speaking of a FULL fulfillment in 70, then you ask, in effect, What happens with all the rest of the scriptural promises that never were fulfilled in 70?

As you know, the Watchtower has already dealt with this question many times by invoking the dual fulfillment explanation. It's one of the most common ways to explain Matthew 24. The dual fulfillment works pretty well, right up until the moment that Jesus says:

(Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

It's interesting that some commentators still do try to put ALL of this on 70 CE. The Watchtower has allowed for all the "signs" even up to and including the "great tribulation" (prior to Mt 24:29) to refer to Jerusalem in 70, but puts a greater fulfillment of all portions of Matthew 24 starting in 1914.

But it's also curious that although commentators can't apply the sun will be darkened...moon...stars...powers of heaven shaken, etc to 70 because it's obviously future. Yet many will still give it only a "spiritual" application. But it's also possible to give it a "spiritual" application to a judgment on the Jewish system, using the elements of sun, moon and stars that have applied to Israel since Joseph's dream about Israel (Jacob)

(Genesis 37:9, 10) . . .This time the sun and the moon and 11 stars were bowing down to me.” 10 Then he related it to his father as well as his brothers, and his father rebuked him and said to him: “What is the meaning of this dream of yours? Am I [the sun] as well as your mother [the moon] and your brothers [the stars] really going to come and bow down to the earth to you?”

Some think this idea is repeated in Revelation 12:1-5:

(Revelation 12:1-6) . . .Then a great sign was seen in heaven: A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, ² and she was pregnant. . . .. ⁵ And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to his throne. ⁶ And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.

The application of the "woman" to Israel is also seen here, and is considered by some commentators as an obvious tie-in to Revelation:

(Galatians 4:24-29) . . .These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai, which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar. 25 Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written: “Be glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break into joyful shouting, you woman who does not have birth pains; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than those of her who has the husband.” 28 Now you, brothers, are children of the promise the same as Isaac was. 29 But just as then the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit, so also now.

I think the idea is worth exploring, but I don't think it's enough of an explanation. The idea that the sun and moon darkened is often tied to the conditions of total destruction (smoke and fire) that blots out the sun in the day, and moon and stars at night. But this too is not a strong explanation because Jesus tied it closely to the rest of the passage with the word "then."

Russell was sure, along with most Second Adventists, that the sign had occured in 1780 and 1833. But he also believed in a symbolic fulfillment. Commenting on Luke 21:25-33 the Watch Tower in May 1896 said:

Verses 25-31, leaping over centuries, point to events near the close of Gentile Times, and mention the signs of the close of the Gospel age, and connected with the revealing of the Son of Man in glory. The signs in the sun, moon and stars were to give a general idea as to the time when the Kingdom would be nigh. We will not here particularize respecting these signs, but will mention them:-- The remarkable darkening of the sun and moon, May 19th, 1780; and the notable falling of stars or meteoric shower on the morning of Nov. 13th, 1833. While we believe also in a symbolic fulfilment of the darkening of the sun and falling of the stars, yet we cannot overlook the literal fulfilment, and hence expect, in harmony with Verses 32,33, that some of the generation which saw the falling stars will continue to live until God's Kingdom shall be fully established.

The same had been said in the January 1885 Watch Tower, p.711; and  Studies in the Scriptures "Battle of Armageddon" -- Vol 5 p.589-591. (Stocked and sold to the public from 1897 until about 1933)

I think all these chronology problems go away when we take it that Jesus was saying that there would be a parousia upon Jerusalem but immediately after the tribulation of those days, the final parousia could be expected at any time. Not that much emphasis need be put on 70 CE, except that Jesus was saying that the REAL sign of the parousia they were asking about can only happen "immediately" AFTER the parousia (visitation) upon Jerusalem. That means that the only problem is with the word "Immediately."

I think we have to admit, as the Watchtower does, that Jesus really did answer a question about a visitation of judgment on Jerusalem. Jesus said that judgment would be visited on that same generation that was listening to him in Matthew 23, and said that particular generation would not pass away before it happened in Matthew 24 -- that's how near it was. The disciples were therefore concerned and wanted to know when this visitation of judgment would occur. (The word often used for a "visitation" from someone in high rank in this context is "Parousia," therefore the disciples would have used the word parousia with this meaning.) They obviously didn't know anything about an "invisible parousia," although Jesus seems to anticipate that some might start claiming that it would be an "invisible parousia." This could explain why he said it was going to be as visible as a huge lightning flash.

Except for trying to put an exact date on the beginning of the parousia, and making it invisible (from 1874 until it would become "visible" in 1914), I think the Watchtower's solution of a dual fulfillment is a pretty common one. For me, putting any date on the parousia appears to be a rejection of Jesus' very words that no one would know the day or the hour of the parousia. Also, trying to find specific occurrences of any sign or signs prior to the actual visitation (parousia) is a rejection of Jesus' words.

When I mention 33 or 70, of course, I am only using these dates as a shorthand for the events that we have tied to those dates. It doesn't matter to me if we start saying that Jesus actually died in 27 CE, or 30 CE, or 33, or 36, or if Jerusalem wasn't destroyed in precisely the year 70 by the Romans. I think it's only important to know that Jesus showed that world events were still under the control of a higher power (Jehovah) and who could therefore still keep his promises despite any trials and tribulations. Jesus knew that this parousia would arrive within a generation, and it did. For other reasons I think it's important to notice that Jesus also said that the time of the Gentiles trampling the holy city Jerusalem also had not started yet, but that they would begin some time in that current generation.

So for those Biblical reasons, I don't think your list of 12 questions is very applicable. Some of them are simple to answer, but not at all related to this discussion. 

[Anna]

7 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

Only those that truly receive God's Holy Spirit will not deviate from scripture. That would also include those that God has commissioned to understand what Generations and Time Prophecy actually means, and therefore dispensing that knowledge at the proper time

That hasn't always been the case though has it? You know the expression "we used to think" as applied to past interpretations shows that those "understanding" did not understand correctly.

[Anna]

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Not all of these recommendations were in the publications; some came from the talks during the circuit overseer's visit, and district overseers were encouraged to arrange special talks on the subject of 1975.  The May 1974 Kingdom Ministry was one of the publications that spoke to this issue directly. I'm quoting almost the entire article to give a better sense:

*** km 5/74 p. 3-4 How Are You Using Your Life? ***
. . . Are we not thankful that Jehovah God has purchased us and that we now belong to Him? . . . The apostle Peter noted that if we have the proper mental disposition we will be moved to “live the remainder of [our] time in the flesh, no more for the desires of men, but for God’s will.”—1 Pet. 4:2.
Is that what you are doing? Are you living no longer simply to satisfy personal ambitions or desires, but to do God’s will? Are there ways in which you could share more fully in doing the will of God?
God’s Will for Us
Jehovah makes clear in his Word that his will for us today includes accomplishing a great work of Kingdom-preaching before the end of this system comes. (Matt. 24:14) . . . Jesus did not hold back, but was whole-souled in his service to God. . . . Jesus knew that he had only a short time, and he did not spare himself in finishing his assignment. Should we not today be imitating his example, especially since we have such a short time left now in which to complete the Kingdom-preaching?
Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity? In this regard we can learn something from a runner who puts on a final burst of speed near the finish of a race. Look at Jesus, who apparently stepped up his activity during his final days on earth. In fact, over 27 percent of the material in the Gospels is devoted to just the last week of Jesus’ earthly ministry!—Matt. 21:1–27:50; Mark 11:1–15:37; Luke 19:29–23:46; John 11:55–19:30.
By carefully and prayerfully examining our own circumstances, we also may find that we can spend more time and energy in preaching during this final period before the present system ends. Many of our brothers and sisters are doing just that. This is evident from the rapidly increasing number of pioneers.
Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.—1 John 2:17.
Circumstances such as poor health or responsibilities in connection with your family may limit what you can do in the field ministry. And yet, the pioneer ranks include many who have health limitations, as well as some persons with families. But these brothers and sisters are able to regulate their lives so that they can care for their responsibilities and still put in the 1,200 hours a year, an average of 100 hours a month in the field ministry, required of pioneers.
Therefore, do not be too quick to dismiss the possibility that you, too, may be able to pioneer. Give it careful and prayerful consideration. Perhaps an analysis will reveal that your life is encumbered with needless weights that can be put off so that you can pioneer. Particularly may this be the case if you are single, or are married but have no children.—Heb. 12:1.
So, then, ask yourself: How am I using my life? Can I make adjustments that will enable me to pioneer? If I can, will failure to do so indicate to Jehovah that I am living to satisfy personal desires, rather than to do His will? Every one of us wants to be able to say, as did the apostle Paul, “Indeed, the life that I now live in flesh I live by the faith that is toward the Son of God, who loved me and handed himself over for me. I do not shove aside the undeserved kindness of God.” Gal. 2:20, 21. . . .
So do not delay in giving serious consideration to this matter of how you are using your life. See if you can arrange your affairs to pioneer. Why not discuss the matter with persons already pioneering or with elders in your congregation?

I was part of that 34% increase, one of the 20,394 who had started regular pioneering in the summer of 1973. It included a lot of persons just quitting high school at 16, 17, or having just graduated at 18. I was still 15 when I quit school, and got my diploma through a test when I was 16, which was the only way my father would let me pioneer -- if I already had a diploma and I met with the circuit overseer to talk about it first. The encouragement not to pursue further education came from the circuit overseer and from discussions of talks and of articles such as one below. The core point of the article is found in the two predictions. I added the years [in brackets] that would have gone through your head if you read this in 1969, which helped me decide to quit school in 1973.

If you are a young person you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years.  . . .  Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, [1973] perhaps even six [1975] or eight more years [1977] to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way towards its finish, if not actually gone!"  -- Awake! May 22, 1969, page 14-15.

At Bethel, the Awake! magazine was put into "MEPS" format back to 1950 at the same time as the Watchtower. This is what allowed the publications go into the first Watchtower Library CD's. In fact, if you call the Watchtower Society and ask them to look up something in the Awake! they actually use a Watchower Library CD that takes the Awake! back to 1946. I can't think of any reason they decided to take it only as far back as 1970 on the public CD except perhaps this article from 1969. The Watchtower goes back to 1950 on the public CD.

I think it brings some reproach even to bring it up again without honestly explaining why people thought that they wouldn't grow old. They would have never just "thought" that on their own. They were specifically "told" that they would not grow old in this system. Bringing up these old issues at an assembly as a way to claim that it has now been addressed and to show a certain lesson that was learned from it is not helpful unless it's done openly and honestly. The lesson should probably be quite different than the lesson we are now told to learn from that time period. The lessons should probably be that we always let our reasonableness be known to all, and obey God as ruler rather than men, and never allow ourselves to think of any of our elders as if they were in the seat of Moses. Without those lessons, even though all the brothers mean well, it's easy to drift back into an attitude where we can forget our own personal responsibility towards Jehovah and the congregation.

*** w13 11/15 p. 20 par. 17 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today ***
(2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.

*** w13 11/15 p. 24 par. 14 Obey Jehovah’s Shepherds ***
To survive the tenth plague, the Israelites had to obey the instructions to have a special meal and to splash some of the blood of a slaughtered sheep on the doorposts and lintels of their houses. That direction did not come to them by means of a voice out of heaven. No, they had to listen to the older men of Israel, who in turn received specific instructions from Moses. (Ex. 12:1-7, 21-23, 29) In those circumstances, Moses and the older men acted as bearers of Jehovah’s instructions to his people. Christian elders fulfill a comparably vital function today.

(Matthew 23:2) 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses.

Even in a recent article with good information in it warning us against apostates, note how easy it is to slip into the idea that instructions are coming from our leaders instead of from our Leader.

*** w17 July pp. 29-30 Winning the Battle for Your Mind ***
A soldier whose loyalty to his leader is weakened will not fight well. So propagandists attempt to break bonds of confidence and trust between a soldier and his commander. They may use such propaganda as: “You cannot trust your leaders!” and “Do not let them lead you into disaster!” To add weight to these attacks, they may cleverly exploit any mistakes those leaders might make. Satan does this. He never gives up trying to undermine your confidence in the leadership that Jehovah has provided.
Your defense? Be determined to stick to Jehovah’s organization and loyally support the leadership he provides—no matter what imperfections may surface. (1 Thess. 5:12, 13) Do not be “quickly shaken from your reason” . . .

 

Thanks JWInsider. I am familiar with the publications you quoted and the article in the KM. I asked that question purposefully because I was not aware that there had been any publications that actually "recommended that we sell our belongings". I thought maybe I had missed one. However, as you pointed out, the insinuations were definitely there, if only because of the praise for those who had done so. This is why I find the video from the convention so curious. I listened to it again and here is the transcript from it (video part of the talk "How you can by no means ever fail") :

The setting, the father is relating his story of how when his wife died and thereafter

“With Jehovah’s help, and with the support of the brothers and sisters we got through it (the death of his wife). We learned to rely on Jehovah in ways we never had before. And that helped when years later another test came our way. You see, back then, some were looking to a certain date (1975) as signifying the end of this old system. A few went even so far as selling their homes and quitting their jobs. I admit, I was ready to see this old system go away too, but something just didn’t seem right. Both at meetings, and in my personal study, I was reminded of what Jesus said: Nobody knows the day or the hour. I was dedicated to Jehovah, not a date. After that year came and went, most of those who had wrong expectations made the needed adjustments and they stayed.  We didn’t run away and we didn’t give up. We trusted in Jehovah”.

So, what is the moral of the story? Since at that time those who had sold their homes and gave up their job were held up as a good example, as per the aforementioned KM,  my thoughts are that the GB is reminding us that they make mistakes, and that ultimately, when it comes to the crunch, if something doesn’t seem right, then the scriptures take precedent, (as attested to also by Geoffrey Jackson in his response to a question at the ARC hearing: "So our primary allegiance is to Jehovah God.  Now, the Governing Body realises that if we were to give some direction that is not in harmony with God's word, all of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide who have the Bible would notice that and they would see that it was wrong direction") and a reminder that our dedication is to Jehovah and not to them, and that ultimately we can trust no man, only Jehovah.  Including remembering the key scriptures associated with the talk, 2 Peter 1:5-10, Isaiah 40:31, 2 Corinthians 4:7, 9,16 THAT in a nutshell is how we can “By No Means Ever Fail”  @bruceq

Otherwise you and  @TrueTomHarley I think have pretty much covered most of the points to do with indirect suggestions and "guilting" at that time.  "You have health problems? Family responsibilities? No excuse! Let's listen to this experience from [someplace] where a hearing and sight-impaired mother of 10 with no arms and legs got her kids ready for school every day and then put in 8 hours of service"  Just about cracked me up!

[Evacuated]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And what @Eoin Joyce said about being "enlightened" to make sure he kept a more balanced view of 1975, back in 1972: "Probably the 1975 thing is the most glaring example I have personally experienced, although I was thankfully enlightened about the erroneous expectations attached about 1972 or so, and seem to have avoided the "hysteria" others appear to have experienced."

If this was due to input from a brother or sister, was that brother doing the right thing?

I feel bound to respond in that I have been quoted.

The orientation that I received way back then in 1972 was definitely "the right thing" in that it expressed a view, already in circulation, that I was not aware of at the time,  namely, that the date of 1975 was merely the (currently understood) end of 6000 years of man's existence. Nothing more. It had just been rather eclipsed by the more sensational (to some) 1975 speculation about "the great tribulation".

I note that you have not expressed regret at having entered full-time service at a young age, in spite of the rather biased considerations:

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think I was disadvantaged in the slightest for having done so.

I haven't personally met any faithful servants of Jehovah that have expressed regrets about engaging in the pioneer ministry, regardless of their having been possibly prompted at first by chronological expectations that may have been a product of wishful thinking rather than God's spirit. I have, however,  met a few who no longer serve Jehovah and who have voiced regrets both regarding pioneering and early end time speculations.

It occurs to me that, apart from the clear warnings of obvious deviancy in the Christian congregation in the words of Paul, Peter, James, John, Jude, and Jesus; we don't really know much about the eccentric side of the 1st Century Christians. The terse record of inspired Scripture fulfils the requirement of 2Tim 3:16 to completly equip, and I am sure the presence of the apostles and the operation of God's Spirit minimised the uncoventional. But, in view of James's observation that only perfect men can avoid verbal stumbling, I am sure a few "kooky" ideas circulated in those 66 or so years in the 1st century before the apostasy took off.

And considering the literaly 1000s and 1000s of pages of information that have been produced in the last 140 years by only a comparatively few minds in our movement, without the safeguards of the 1st Century, surely among those many, many words, trangression cannot be avoided? (Pro10:19).

I think though, before we get overly righteous about dates and their effect on motivation, we need to remember the general principles found in Paul's words at Rom 9:17 regarding our preaching: "If I do this willingly, I have a reward; but even if I do it against my will, I still have a stewardship entrusted to me". and correct motivation: "Therefore, let those of us who are mature be of this mental attitude, and if you are mentally inclined otherwise in any respect, God will reveal the above attitude to you". Ph.3:15. (This, notwithstanding the immediate, contextual application).
 

 

[JW Insider]

55 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

The orientation that I received way back then in 1972 was definitely "the right thing" in that it expressed a view, already in circulation, that I was not aware of at the time,  namely, that the date of 1975 was merely the (currently understood) end of 6000 years of man's existence. Nothing more. It had just been rather eclipsed by the more sensational (to some) 1975 speculation about "the great tribulation".

Thanks for the response. I tagged your name there in case I had it wrong. You might have been enlightened through a yoga epiphany or something you read, after all.

Yes, it was "merely" the end of 6,000 years but with an important catch that every circuit overseer repeated at each visit for a while there. Whenever Eve was created, that's when the 6th day ended. The great tribulation would start exactly 6,000 years from Eve's creation. So we'd get talks about how Adam had ONLY ONE JOB! To name the animals. And he didn't have to go to them, they came to him. After seeing all the animals he recognized he needed a mate, too. It could have been a matter of months, or even weeks, NOT YEARS!

*** w68 8/15 p. 499 par. 30 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.

If it was not years then, in standard English, it could be one year, possibly 1.1 to 1.9 years, but must be less than two years. This was why the Awake! article indirectly mentioned 1977 as a time when this system would be well on its way out, if not actually gone. This is saying that it probably must happen before October 1977. Whether you put the emphasis on the "probably" or the "must" was a kind of a test of how mature you were, or how much you trusted the Governing Body. (In those days the Governing Body was still just another name for the  "Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society."

So everything fit so well, because the generation of 1914 should have been at least 10 to 15 years old by 1914 to "discern" the significance of the sign. That meant they were born around 1900. That meant they were going to be about 75 years old by 1975. A Biblical lifespan is 70 or 80; so that's also about 75. So, not just the end of the 6,000 years, but the year 1975 itself, became the "appropriate time for God to act." At the very worst, in the mind of Fred Franz and those willing to echo him, it meant no more than 5 years past 1975. This is why we got articles that said "What will the 1970's bring?" And that article talking about it being a matter of a few "months" at the most "not years" after 1975. Even with a few "age" adjustments for the 1914 generation, several of the publications and assembly talks continued to mention that this system of things could not go on past the end of the twentieth century. That type of talk lasted until 1989.

55 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I note that you have not expressed regret at having entered full-time service at a young age, in spite of the rather biased considerations:

For all I know, I did much better than I might have otherwise. At any rate, I have enjoyed all aspects of service, an my only complaint in life right now is stiff knees, and I never get enough sleep. But I still feel badly for those who made decisions without proper guidance, context, support, and who were left without a back-up plan. We have to at least participate in the responsibility of our decisions anyway.

*** w14 4/15 pp. 25-26 par. 17 Be of Good Courage—Jehovah Is Your Helper! ***
17 Seek Jehovah’s direction before you make decisions and commitments, not after making them. Pray for his holy spirit, wisdom, and guidance. (2 Tim. 1:7) Ask yourself: ‘Under what circumstances am I willing to obey Jehovah? Even under persecution?’ If so, are you willing to obey him when it may mean having to lower your standard of living? (Luke 14:33) Ask the elders for Scriptural advice, and show your faith and trust in Jehovah’s promise to help you by following his counsel. The elders cannot make decisions for you, but they can help you make choices that will lead to happiness in the long run.—2 Cor. 1:24.

 

[Evacuated]

On 7/3/2017 at 9:09 PM, JW Insider said:

several of the publications and assembly talks continued to mention that this system of things could not go on past the end of the twentieth century.

Yes I remember such talks, but they were not the only talks I heard.

I suppose I was spoilt early on for this sort of pressure.  I learnt two things (which may or may not be orthodox), but they have stood me in good stead and, I believe, have served to prevent me from being quickly shaken from my reason or to be alarmed. (2Thess.2:2)

1. I shared lodgings with for a while with Hendry Carmichael, (Yearbook 1977 p81-83). I learned many things from this zealous, Glaswegian brother. He once said to me, with his twinkling blue eyes a-sparkle, "You know laddie, your Armageddon came the day you heard the good news, because what you do with it will make an everlasting difference to your future!".

2. Over the years, I have been blessed with many, wonderful bible studies who have progressed to dedication and baptism, including a woman who is now my wife and pioneer partner. She said to me recently that it sadddens her sometimes to hear that the end is as imminent as many brothers emphasize. I know what she means. If the end had come in 1975, she would not have found the truth. (And nor me, her). And when it does come, there will be no others to save out of this wicked world. I know the resurrection will afford unimaginable opportunities to help people learn the truth of God's puposes, but we are meeting new ones all the time now, and starting new studies, in a part of the world I was told is "unproductive"!

So what am I saying? Well, my Armageddon (figurative of course), has long come and gone, and I am making every effort to ensure that when the real one does, I am rightly disposed for everlasting life.(Acts 13:48). And as far as the time left is concerned? Well, every day in this system of things, lives are being saved in evidence of Jehovah's patience. (Ex.18:23) And we can have as much a share in this as our volunteer sprit impels. (2Cor.9:6-7) There is no organisation on earth that facilitates this work in the way that Jehovah's Witnesses do. (Mich.4:1-2)

And that I think, for me anyway, captures the essence of 1Tim.4:16: "Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you."

[Anna]

8 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

"You know laddie, your Armageddon came the day you heard the good news, because what you do with it will make an everlasting difference to your future!".

Beautiful and spot on reasoning. Thanks for sharing. He sounds like a lovely brother, will have to go and read his story!

Reminds me a little of another quote, by an equally astute and wise brother, which I have quoted before " Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

[Anna]

31 minutes ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

Therefore, political correctness as subscribed would be an incorrect observation, since it would speak more of those without understanding than what the governing body was attempting to convey.

You sure sound like Allen Smith, he suggested something similar. However, no matter how you wish to turn it, the responsibility rested with the GB, who themselves admitted that the way they conveyed the idea became more a probability rather than a possibility at convention talks. Some still have tapes, or remember these talks where GB members spoke about 1975 as a probability.  Not only that, but as others on this forum have pointed out, WT publications assured its readers that we would not see the end of the 20th century before Armaggedon came. That is a fact because you can check these publications yourself.

[JW Insider]

On 6/30/2017 at 9:34 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

Jesus proclamation of the end of days was not incumbent for the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. There were no mass earthquakes, volcanos, isonomies, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera in, 70CE. So that interpretation stands for the “generation” after 1914 that will witness all the signs Jesus spoke of. Those signs have become more frequent and destructive after 1914 when it was NOT common place with frequency before 1914.

Now if the prevailing opinion is Jesus was king in 33CE instead of taking over Aarons high priesthood of the Christian congregation and the end of days Jesus proclaimed in his time due to his established kingship? Then that would have made Jesus King at birth.

The operative words are “hold the offices” over emphasizing by saying HE IS KING!!!!!!

Insight Volume 2 p.1113

The High Priesthood of Jesus Christ. The Bible book of Hebrews points out that Jesus Christ, since his resurrection and entry into heaven, is “a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek forever.” (Heb 6:20; 7:17, 21) To describe the greatness of Christ’s priesthood and its superiority over the Aaronic priesthood, the writer shows that Melchizedek was both a king and a priest by designation of the highest God, and not by inheritance. Christ Jesus, not of the tribe of Levi, but of Judah and of the line of David, did not inherit his office by descent from Aaron, but obtained it by direct appointment of God, as did Melchizedek. (Heb 5:10) In addition to the promise recorded at Psalm 110:4: “Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret): ‘You are a priest to time indefinite according to the manner of Melchizedek!’” which appointment makes him a heavenly King-Priest, Christ also possesses Kingdom authority by reason of his descent from David. In the latter case, he becomes the heir of the kingship promised in the Davidic covenant. (2Sa 7:11-16) He therefore holds in combination the offices of kingship and priesthood, as did Melchizedek.

NOT scripturally sound, for Ezekiel prophecy when only using 1260 in revelation as a guide would end up in 653AD. Just about the time of the rise of the Muslim nations, after the Christian disputes of the formation of the Vatican in 66CE and the Church fathers after 100CE. These churches were only interested in claiming power for themselves in the name of Jesus, NOT for Jesus and God’s heavenly Kingdom. So, here is the unity in that period.

So, Prophecy should have been fulfilled after 653AD, and we are all still here, living under a corrupt government. And who were the 2 witnesses, and why has God allowed an additional 1900 years to pass. Not to mention when did the great commission end in order to fulfill God’s promise of a better Kingdom. Mark 16:15

Therefore, scripture would be a book of inconsistent stories, and prophecy's, since all that Jesus promised for his father’s sake, would have been complete, and humanity continues in the same path So, those opinions ARE NOT SCRIPTURALLY SOUND!!!!!

Knowledge is afforded to those that seek the kingdom of God. Therefore, those that believe their own opinion, is part of this world, and have NO heavenly kingdom interest. Therefore, there is no difficulty expressing God’s word to the nations, by scripture, and those that proclaim in the name of their own opinion, overshadow true knowledge. So, Christians would do better to accept the word of God, and through those that God commissions, rather than allow masked opinions peak their curiosity.

@Gnosis Pithos, Starting with the above post from Friday June 30, I'd like to respond to all of your posts in an orderly manner. If I don't understand why you said something, I can at least make a guess based on context, and you can correct me, please, if I got it wrong. Some was covered in previous answers, but I want to make sure I got all your points.

Your first point, I'm pretty sure, was that Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24 was not about 70 CE. At first I thought you used the word "incumbent" in its definition of "necessary, required as a duty" and then you implied later that perhaps you meant it with another meaning, and that other meaning is "one already holding office." In either case, the answer is that Jesus was speaking about a visitation of judgment on Jerusalem in 70 CE, and he worded it in such a way that Christians have been able to make application to any period of time prior to his visitation of judgment upon the world. Whether or not Jesus held the office of king is also a part of the point that you make here and elsewhere.

Jesus was called "King" during several periods of his earthly life and ministry:

• around the time of his birth (Herod, astrologers, Simeon [Christ of Jehovah]),
• during his ministry (visitation to Jerusalem on colt of donkey),
• just before his death (Jews/Pilate),
• during his death (the sign above him),
• after his resurrection and ascension and prior to 70 CE (book of Acts, most of Paul's letters, e.g., "King of Kings")
• in the introduction to Revelation (Revelation chapter 1 where called "ruler of the kings of the earth")
• within the Revelation (Revelation 11, 12 where he is also said to "rule as king forever")

The exact time periods referred to in Revelation 11, 12 are not strictly known and therefore could possibly even refer to gaining the "office" of kingship in a year like 1914 if that is Biblically possible.

In addition to the points made above about the specific word "king" we have many additional points that refer to "kingdom," "kingship," "rulership," "authority," "might," "power," "commandments" "Davidic promise" and association with "thrones," "scepters," "majesty," "worship/obeisance," etc. All these points provide even more evidence for the same points made about when, he was king. However, we begin to notice another pattern that is also evidenced, and that is the fact that it's always OTHERS calling him King before his birth and during his ministry, and before his death. Jesus even finds a way to answer the question from Pilate about whether he is King, by highlighting that is comes from the mouth of "OTHERS" (Jews and Pilate). It's only AFTER his resurrection that inspired Bible writers call him a "king" or "ruler" directly or even "king of kings" (1 Tim 6) or say he has "now" been given a "name" above every other government and rulership. It reminds us of Jesus own words just after his resurrection that "ALL AUTHORITY" has now been given to him, so that he now "commands" them as subjects. (Mt 28)

Whether that Biblical pattern is important or not, we can't say, but we can say that the Bible has no problem calling him "King of Kings" after his resurrection and before the destruction of Jerusalem (70 CE).

You then point out that were no mass earthquakes or related events in 70 CE. so this MUST apply to after 1914, when earthquakes or at least "those signs" now come with greater frequency than before 1914. There is no logic to that statement. The Bible does speak of great earthquakes before 70 CE, and the Watchtower agrees and pointed out the same. But even if there were not, this type of sign is not measurable without a lot of evidence that just isn't there. Great earthquakes may very well be LESS frequent now than in the past. With several billions of people on earth at the same time instead of several millions in times past, every earthquake, even small ones have more opportunity to be more destructive of human life, and that's a good point. Perhaps that's what Jesus meant by "great earthquakes." But we still don't know if this meant that we should be on the watch for a time when earthquakes start becoming more destructive. In fact, many if not the majority of Bible commentators through the years have seen Jesus' statement about earthquakes as an example of what NOT to look for as a sign. Even Charles Taze Russell understood that this was what Jesus meant. Jesus said we are going to hear about wars and great earthquakes but NOT to be misled, not to think that this means the end is upon us because of them. So clearly earthquakes and wars were NOT the sign. Besides, there were no major earthquakes in 1914. One set of evidence lists large population centers around the world that were hit in a way that killed many thousands at a time in 1780, 1783, 1786, 1797, 1837, 1847, 1854, 1855, 1857, 1868, 1881, 1891, 1893, 1896, 1902, 1905, 1906, 1908, 1915, 1920, 1923, 1927, 1931, 1934, 1939, 1944, 1949, 1960, 1968, 1970, 1974, 1975, etc.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_20th-century_earthquakes#1901.E2.80.931910
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_earthquakes

As more population centers become denser, and as recording devices become more accurate, we will surely hear about more earthquakes, but there is no specific evidence that 1914 and the three or four generations living in the time periods after 1914 have seen an increase. Starting with the records in 1837 it looks like the decade of the 1870's saw no major earthquakes that killed many thousands at once. But we also see such a gap in the decade of the 1950's, and it's just as likely that gaps before 1837 have more to do with lack of historical records and worldwide communication capability (telegraph, telephone). We also have a factor of better construction in some dense population centers which could have reduced the "greatness" of more recent earthquakes since 1914. So the point is that there is just not enough evidence, and even if there was, Jesus' point was that earthquakes were not even an important sign. But we do know for a fact, at least, that there were at least two or three great earthquakes prior to 70, mentioned in the scriptures. We also can be pretty sure that Christians would been looking for evidences of the timing of Jesus' parousia, but he had warned them that these earthquakes had nothing to do with the timing of his parousia.

Then you say:

"Now if the prevailing opinion is Jesus was king in 33CE instead of taking over Aarons high priesthood of the Christian congregation and the end of days Jesus proclaimed in his time due to his established kingship? Then that would have made Jesus King at birth.:

I think you are saying that you are willing to accept that Jesus fulfilled the office of "high priest" in 33 CE but that the only way in which we could say he was "king" in 33 CE would be in the same way that he was "king" at the time of his birth. (Perhaps you are referring to either the expression: "the one born king of the Jews" or perhaps also this:

(John 18:37) . . .So Pilate said to him: “Well, then, are you a king?” Jesus answered: “You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world. . .

Then of course, you said:

"The operative words are “hold the offices” over emphasizing by saying HE IS KING!!!!!!"

But you don't accept the Bible's answer:

(1 Timothy 6:15) ". . .He is the King. . ."

You then quote the "Insight" book which is, in my opinion, devastating to the theory that Jesus did not become king until 1914. Here's why. Insight says:

To describe the greatness of Christ’s priesthood and its superiority over the Aaronic priesthood, the writer shows that Melchizedek was both a king and a priest by designation of the highest God, and not by inheritance. . . .  In addition to the promise recorded at Psalm 110:4: “Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret): ‘You are a priest to time indefinite according to the manner of Melchizedek!’” which appointment makes him a heavenly King-Priest, Christ also possesses Kingdom authority by reason of his descent from David. In the latter case, he becomes the heir of the kingship promised in the Davidic covenant. (2Sa 7:11-16) He therefore holds in combination the offices of kingship and priesthood, as did Melchizedek.

So, was that office of King-Priest something that Jesus would be appointed to in the future, or did it already happen? Did we already have such a priest who was also a King-Priest as Melchizedek was? Hebrews answers:

(Hebrews 6:20-7:4) . . .Jesus, who has become a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek forever. 7 For this Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Saʹlem, that is, “King of Peace.” 3 In being fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life, but being made like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time.

Hebrews 1 and 2 had already dealt with his Kingship and royal power: "God is your throne." "He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." "The scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness." "But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned. . ."