ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[bruceq]

25 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

The GB has a history of missteps in direction, yet they continue to expect unquestioned loyalty.

Tom is correct this has been hashed out many times. Look in past posts it has all been answered before. 

Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you+and be submissive,+ for they are keeping watch over you* as those who will render an account,+ so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you. Heb. 13:17.   Sorry but we didn't write this Scripture. Deal with it. Jesus is the Head and we must follow him wherever he goes even if you do not like it. 

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/organized-religion/

[JW Insider]

21 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

I take it these 70+ men, "failed" to fill the shoes of The Prophet Moses

It wasn't the 70 who filled the shoes of Moses, it was Jesus. This is why the example of Korah is so important. It is a lesson about how men want their own authority over others, when it was only Jesus Christ who we should accept as Head of the congregations. There are no others who should be treated as leaders.

• (Acts 3:20-22) . . .and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you.
• (Acts 7:37) 37 “This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel: ‘God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me.’
• (1 Corinthians 10:2-4) 2 and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock meant the Christ.
• (Hebrews 3:1, 2) . . .Jesus. 2 He was faithful to the One who appointed him, just as Moses also was in all the house of that One.

And of course:

• (Matthew 23:10) 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.

So clearly Hebrews 13 means that we follow the lead of elders in their examples of faith and the lead they take in encouraging fine works.

• (Hebrews 10:24, 25) 24 And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.

• (Hebrews 13:7) 7 Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith.

 

[Arauna]

The kings were appointed by Jehovah. It went well with them and the nation if they inquired from Jehovah and followed the directions of the prophets.  Disaster struck when they did not follow the instructions from the prophets. Jehovah kept sending prophets and they kept rejecting them.

[Arauna]

The seventy was sent out as a training for the future.  Jesus was setting the pattern and instructing them what to do and not to do. 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Call me a skeptic, but how can Jehovah God honestly expect JWs to put GB and Moses on the same level?

 

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Their souls never wore out.

Presumably, this is also true of GB members, past & present.

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

God left no doubt in the mind of the Jews that Moses was divinely appointed and had authority. Dissent was ridiculous.

One would think so. But that did not stop Korah and a whole bunch of others from doing it.

 

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

It may be an extreme example, but the point remains that these Kings were appointed by God, yet God punished those who followed the King into false worship.

You have not even attempted to make the case - and I trust you won't go there - that the GB is leading people into false worship.

[Anna]

17 hours ago, bruceq said:

It is possible to believe in something that later is decided by Jesus as being the truth.

I don't quite understand what you mean by this

17 hours ago, bruceq said:

Oh perhaps you were right after all but is it not better to stay in the vehicle

I agree with you

17 hours ago, bruceq said:

As for teachings that were not true but later were the same thing applies. Jesus is head of the Congregation. Certainly he knows the road ahead better than we humans do and sometimes can make decisions that according to our limited human viewpoint from the back of the bus seem wrong or actually is wrong. For example Jesus told people to eat his blood and flesh. Not only was that wrong according to Jewish Law but common human decency. Yet who was right?

I don't really see that when Jesus told people to drink his blood and eat his flesh is an example of something that wasn't true but later was. This is just a case of interpretation. The people interpreted that to be taken literally (false premise), but Jesus meant it symbolically (correct understanding). Using your example of drinking Jesus' blood and eating his flesh, it's like if we had taught that this was literal, but later, we correctly discerned it was symbolic. According to your argument Jesus would be guiding this thinking when we thought it literal?

17 hours ago, bruceq said:

Sometimes the driver can go over bumps in the road or swerve to avoid certain things but it is not wrong if the Driver knows what he is doing. Do you not think Jesus knows what he is doing? We may become anxious or get vertigo from the changes made by the Chariot but a true follower of Christ will follow him no matter where he goes without complaining to him about the road taken.

The thing is, these bumps in the road are our own making. We create the bumps.They are nothing to do with Jesus. The changes made by the Chariot are because WE had got thing wrong. If we had got them right the Chariot wouldn't need to change at all. It shows Jesus' and Jehovah's purpose does not change but sometimes has to take a detour to go around a wrong teaching (the bump) and get back on the correct path (when we finally get it right). Who knows, the chariot might be taking a big detour right now around 1914. It had to take that detour several times because of a wrong date. It took one around the 1925 teaching until 1925 passed, and the Chariot could get back on track....

[bruceq]

36 minutes ago, Anna said:

 

The thing is, these bumps in the road are our own making. We create the bumps.They are nothing to do with Jesus. The changes made by the Chariot are because WE had got thing wrong. If we had got them right the Chariot wouldn't need to change at all. It shows Jesus' and Jehovah's purpose does not change but sometimes has to take a detour to go around a wrong teaching (the bump) and get back on the correct path (when we finally get it right). Who knows, the chariot might be taking a big detour right now around 1914. It had to take that detour several times because of a wrong date. It took one around 1925 until 1925 passed, and the Chariot could get back on track....

   No they are not. You have to look at this from a spiritual way not a physical way. JESUS is in control of the Chariot NOT any humans. We do not have ANY control over it including any movements or "bumps". Jesus IS the head of the Congregation and Jehovah's Witnesses is the true religion. Therefore we must have exclusive LOYALTY to Jesus as head and obey everything that comes from JEHOVAH"S ORGANIZATION because it is the TRUE religion from JEHOVAH. We just had a Convention about Loyalty and talk #3 outline is all about the things I have just gone over.

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=loyalty

Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you+and be submissive,+ for they are keeping watch over you* as those who will render an account,+ so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you. Heb. 13:17. Jesus is the Head and we must follow him wherever he goes even if you do not like it your life is at stake as it was with Satan and other disloyal ones in the past. 

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/organized-religion/

 I believe that JESUS is our head and we should follow him no matter where he goes.  Eph. 1:22.

 Jesus is head of the Congregation Mt 28:18; Eph. 5:23; Heb. 2:8.

“These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes.”—REV. 14:4.

Loyalty to the Head of the Congregation is a given. Should not even be questioned as Jesus IS our Lord and Master. Therefore he is in control of all teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses IF you believe Jehovah's Witnesses is the true faith. To do things on your own like Adam, Eve, Satan, and other presumptuous ones tried is disloyalty. And shows great disrespect for our Head as he is in control of the Chariot. To do your own thing as you state is no different than Christendom and is like using a taxi instead of letting Jesus drive the Chariot. In a taxi you pay someone to go where YOU want. Just like Christendom pays its clergy to go where the people want. Ez. Cpt. 1

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=true+religion

From this weekends Watchtower Study: Para 15:

^ What is our response to divinely authorized headship? By our respectful cooperation, we show our support for Jehovah’s sovereignty. Even if we do not fully understand or agree with a decision, we will still want to support theocratic  order. That is quite different from the way of the world, but it is the way of life under Jehovah’s rulership. (Eph. 5:22, 23; 6:1-3; Heb. 13:17) We benefit from doing so, for God has our interests at heart.  https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-june-2017/uphold-jehovah-gods-sovereignty/

 

[Anna]

4 hours ago, Anna said:

The thing is, these bumps in the road are our own making. We create the bumps.They are nothing to do with Jesus. The changes made by the Chariot are because WE had got thing wrong. If we had got them right the Chariot wouldn't need to change at all. It shows Jesus' and Jehovah's purpose does not change but sometimes has to take a detour to go around a wrong teaching (the bump) and get back on the correct path (when we finally get it right)

3 hours ago, bruceq said:

No they are not. You have to look at this from a spiritual way not a physical way. JESUS is in control of the Chariot NOT any humans. We do not have ANY control over it including any movements or "bumps".

I think we are talking at cross purposes here. I am looking at it in a spiritual way. This is exclusively a spiritual subject since the chariot is not a physical thing.  I never said Jesus was not in control of the Chariot. In fact I said he WAS, and that sometimes he has to take a detour to ride around a bump that WE his Witnesses have created. ( I say WE in a broad sense, since of course it is the FDS who are in charge of what is taught). Or are you saying that a wrong understanding that the FDS put forward is really Jesus saying it? I don't think you are, since you, like me, believe that all that Jesus says is the truth. It is OUR interpretation that can sometimes be wrong (drinking his blood etc.) So, in view of that, if we have a wrong interpretation, and put it forward as a true teaching, then that must be the bump that Jesus in his chariot has to go around isn't it? Both Jesus and Jehovah work with us, despite our imperfections, and hence also our imperfect interpretations. No, of course we do not have any control over the movement of the chariot, since it is Jesus who is the driver. However the bumps in the road are NOT created by Jesus are they?

And I never aid Jesus was not head of the congregation either. I believe he is.

3 hours ago, bruceq said:

Even if we do not fully understand or agree with a decision, we will still want to support theocratic  order.

This is mainly talking about a decision made by the Elders regarding a congregational matter. This is not talking about doctrine. Nevertheless, by extension, if there is a doctrinal understanding we do not agree with, we can still support theocratic order by waiting on Jehovah, since the passage of time will eventually show whether our thoughts were correct or not. If we were wrong,  then the  chariot will bring us back on track. If the FDS were wrong then the chariot will bring them back on track. It's a win win if you support theocratic order. Of course we would never support anything if it was blatantly scripturally wrong.

P.S. Bruce, let me ask you a hypothetical question so that I am clear on your thinking. IF the GB said tomorrow that all Witnesses must commit suicide to prove their loyalty to God and to get into the new system, would you go ahead or not? Please give reasons why you would chose your decision.

[Anna]

2 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

PROVE 1914 IS WRONG!!!

I will leave that to @JW Insider He is much more competent than me. 

Note, I never said 1914 was wrong. But I won't say it's right either.  And I actually think it's OK being undecided (in this particular instance).

[Anna]

7 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

 I have no doubts that in time the religion will become like another Church.

I agree with all your prior thoughts except this one.

Jehovah promised he will have a people (a group, not individuals scattered throughout the world) who will be united in worship of him. These peoples will beat their swords into plowshares and will not learn war anymore. They will have love among themselves, and they will follow in his son's footsteps. Whatever Jesus did, and told his followers to do, they will do to their utmost ability. This includes preaching the Kingdom as the only solution to mankind's problems. I do not see that this will ever stop until Jehovah says it is done. These peoples as a group, a great crowd, are the ones to inherit the earth.

"In the final part of the days,*The mountain of the house of Jehovah+Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,And it will be raised up above the hills,And to it peoples will stream.+  ²  And many nations will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah And to the house of the God of Jacob.+ He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.” For law* will go out of Zion,And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.......

 ⁵  For all the peoples will walk, each in the name of its god,But we will walk in the name of Jehovah our God+ forever and ever". - Micah ch. 4

 

[bruceq]

On 8/25/2017 at 11:53 PM, Anna said:

Note, I never said 1914 was wrong. But I won't say it's right either.  And I actually think it's OK being undecided (in this particular instance).

 "And I saw, and look! a white horse,+ and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him,+ and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest.+³  When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature+ say: “Come!” ⁴  Another came out, a fiery-colored horse, and it was granted to the one seated on it to TAKE PEACE AWAY FROM THE EARTH so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword."  Rev. 6:1-3.

World War. 1914. Notice not just one or two or three nations but the entire planet. 

Also note that no blogger has been able to attack this Scripture clearly showing a World War in Rev. 6:3!!!

Are we to believe Jehovah's Witnesses or Christendom and bloggers on this site on this subject who claim to have "special interpretation". Choose for yourself.

Of course the most outstanding part of the sign that the Kingdom was born in 1914 is the preaching of it since 1914. Only Jehovah's Witnesses have done that about the KINGDOM - no other religion even mentions it from door to door or any other way! Why JW.ORG is now even the most visited website thus proving that the Kingdom was born in 1914. Mt. 24:14 {If the Kingdom did not come then it would not be " THIS GOOD NEWS" now would it, the wording shows that it is a REALITY when it is preached}. Thus the Parousia in vs. 2 is directly linked to Kingdom in vs. 14 !!! Also note after the preaching of the KINGDOM THEN the end comes. So that Kingdom is not the END as certain ones try to preach with their "special interpretations".

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/end-times-prophecy-sign/

https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=lisa.joeywit&_armrs=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR9.TRC1.A0.H0.X1914.TRS2&_nkw=1914&_sacat=0

[Ann O'Maly]

OK. This line of discussion has been left unfinished ...

... so it's probably time to wrap it up.

@Arauna had expressed her belief that the date 539 BCE for the fall of Babylon was "truly verified." However, she indicated mistrust of Babylonian sources because "their dates are all over the place - not reliable," the reigns are "impossible to correlate," and that the "Persian and Greek sources gets (sic) us to the truth." She cited the battle of Opis as an example of how the date 539 BCE is verified, apparently unaware that the battle was primarily recorded in a Babylonian source. So I was curious to know if she knew how the relative chronologies of the ancient near eastern world were fixed to BCE dating.

The only answer she could provide were reiterations of what scholarship had already concluded (that Babylon fell in 539 BCE), that Cyrus reigned 9 years and she cited the Olympiad counting system used in some Greek sources. But how do we nail down this data onto a BCE calendar time-line? I asked.

Maybe Arauna doesn't know, or doesn't care, or knows and won't say. So this is the point I've been leading to:

We nail down 'floating chronologies' like Babylonian kings' regnal years and Olympiads to the BCE/CE calendar by means of numerous dated Babylonian astronomical observations. The sky is the 'universal clock' I was hinting at. Babylonians were excellent sky-watchers and wanted to understand the motions of celestial objects, so they observed and measured distances and times, and they recorded what they saw. It was vital that they noted down the date for the observations otherwise their records would be useless for researching and calculating periodicities and so on. The year date would be their king's regnal year. Therefore, these dated astronomical tablets are snapshots of time, with celestial configurations often unique to that time period. So, when we combine the data from known kings regnal years with dated astronomical records from the same era, we can derive the BCE years the kings reigned.

This is the method by which it was deduced that 539 BCE was Nabonidus' 17th year, when the battle of Opis happened, and when Babylon fell to the Persians.

The same method and same Babylonian astronomical sources yield,

• 605 BCE as Nebuchadnezzar II's accession
• 597 BCE as the siege of Jerusalem and Jehoiachin's surrender and exile
• 587 BCE as Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year and Jerusalem's destruction

We cannot accept 539 BCE as being verified for certain events, while rejecting the dates for other events that have been verified by using the exact same methods and sources that were used to confirm 539 BCE. This would be an intellectually dishonest approach. Counter to what Arauna stated about the unreliability of Babylonian sources to get at the truth about dating Babylon's fall to 539 BCE, we cannot get to the truth about 539 BCE (or the year of Jerusalem's destruction) without Babylonian sources.