Should JW's punish, disfellowship, or shun members who disagree with certain teachings?

[TrueTomHarley]

56 minutes ago, bruceq said:

And since a forum such as this one it is impossible to determine who is or is not an apostate, disfellowshipped or pretending to be a brother while dispensing divisions  and we are obviously associating together here it is my decision to now leave as I wish to cherish true Loyalty to my Creator. 

I mentioned once that I assume up front that everyone is a liar. You have to do that online. It's takes a while to sort them out here, and some you never know for sure. It's probably best just to stay off the darn thing, but I'm not the most balanced guy in the world.

Besides, new or naive ones come along and play here like kids on the street. Villains are trying to run them down, swerving like ISIS to take out as many as possible. Sometimes I can flatten their tires and thwart them, or at least slow them down and cause them to pull out their air pump to imbibe more hot air.

Not to mention that I suspect some here don't have both oars in the water.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

5 hours ago, bruceq said:

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I upvote ANYBODY when what they say is true, and/or really applicable.

We know. Satan said some things that were also true. 

But wasn't it Billy Graham or one of those preachers from a bye-gone generation who said:

"We should learn to love and value truth for its own sake. . . . A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God."

 

Actually, it was Charles Taze Russell ....in

the very FIRST issue of the Watchtower.

July 1, 1879 in the article "What is Truth?"

Here is the full text of the article ....

"WHAT IS TRUTH?" 

This question is one which every sincere Christian should ask and seek to answer. We 
should learn to love and value truth for its own sake; to respect and honor it by owning 
and acknowledging it wherever we find it and by whomsoever presented. A truth 
presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God. 

Perhaps no class of people are more apt to overlook this fact than the Christian. How 
often do they in controversy overlook and ignore truth presented by their opponents. 
This is particularly the case when arguing with an infidel. They feel at perfect liberty to 
dispute everything he says on religious subjects. This is not the correct principle. Many 
infidels are honest— as anxious to speak and believe the truth as are Christians— and if in 
converse with them we ignore truths which they may advance, we not only fail to 
convince them of our truths, but put an end to all hope of reaching them; for our failure 
to admit the evident truth which they advance begets in them contempt for the one who 
is not honest enough to admit one truth because he does not see how it can be reconciled 
to another. Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter R9 : page 3 what it contradicts, 
and rely for ability to afterwards harmonize it with others upon "The Spirit of truth, 
which shall guide you into all truth," as Jesus promised. 

Truth, like a modest little flower in the wilderness of life, is surrounded and almost 
choked by the luxuriant growth of the weeds of error. If you would find it you must be 
ever on the lookout. If you would see its beauty you must brush aside the weeds of error 
and the brambles of bigotry. If you would possess it you must stoop to get it. 

Be not content with one flower of truth. Had one been sufficient there would have been 
no more. Gather ever, seek for more. 

Weave them together as a garland —"Bind them on thee as a bride doeth." "Bind them 
about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: so shalt thou find favor and 
good understanding in the sight of God and man." Prov. 3:3. 

C. T. R. 

I believe that covers it ALL.

Oh ... and JW Insider ... thanks for the "setup".

 

.........

[TrueTomHarley]

8 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I upvote ANYBODY when what they say is true, and/or really applicable.

 

I am rethinking it.

[Anna]

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

if it goes back from before I was born, I lose interest

I know what you're saying, but years in themselves don't nullify what happened. If that were the case, then we wouldn't be able to point to the Catholic's sordid past (inquisitions etc.) as an example of why they are bad. Of course I'm comparing apples to oranges...

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I find it amusing and sad at the same time that through the Watchtower, we had to be counseled that we could no longer KILL OUR APOSTATE RELATIVES!

( ... probably advice from the Society's Lawyers and Accountants...)

.

 

[Anna]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Makes one ponder when so-called "brothers" upvote an apostate.

What about when an apostate upvotes a brother? Gulp

[Anna]

3 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I find it amusing and sad at the same time that through the Watchtower, we had to be counseled that we could no longer KILL OUR APOSTATE RELATIVES!

( ... probably advice from the Society's Lawyers and Accountants...)

.

 

Awwww...."shakes head"....JTR!

[Anna]

16 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I am rethinking it.

What are you talking about, you never upvote anybody anyway.....you're mean

[Anna]

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I upvote ANYBODY when what they say is true, and/or really applicable.

 

I like this illustration (and so do you judging by the amount of times you've posted it). Of course both are true, depending on your vantage point. But all it illustrates is that there are several ways of looking at things and they may all be true depending on where you are. I think that was your point. Of course this does nothing to illustrate the "truth" (universal truth) we are talking about as JWs.

Universal truth: There are absolutely no square circles and there are absolutely no round squares

[Guest J.R. Ewing]

5 hours ago, bruceq said:

I realize that I am not an elder or former elder such as some of you are but I know what Loyalty to Jehovah is. And since a forum such as this one it is impossible to determine who is or is not an apostate, disfellowshipped or pretending to be a brother while dispensing divisions  and we are obviously associating together here it is my decision to now leave as I wish to cherish true Loyalty to my Creator

I found that Pastor Russell was always tussling with the same thing. Unfortunately, about 80 percent of bible students didn’t understand, and I would say about 99 percent of Bethelite’s never understood. That’s a shame when people profess to understand scripture, but really, never did.

You shouldn’t be discouraged, when one is compelled to argue the truth with pretenders of the truth. Ex-Bethelites do just that. They discourage true believers with a untethered truth. Anyone that follows that logic is accepting what Jesus warned against.

The ideology, that it’s up to witnesses to exercise scriptural diligence against the governing body is not looking at their own faults as human beings by the lack of knowledge they profess to know. So, don’t feel bad for having been tricked, into an apostate website.

[R8: page 3]

"WHAT IS TRUTH?"

This question is one which every sincere Christian should ask and seek to answer. We should learn to love and value truth for its own sake; to respect and honor it by owning and acknowledging it wherever we find it and by whomsoever presented. A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God.

 

Perhaps no class of people are more apt to overlook this fact than the Christian. How often do they in controversy overlook and ignore truth presented by their opponents? This is particularly the case when arguing with an infidel. They feel at perfect liberty to dispute everything he says on religious subjects. This is not the correct principle. Many infidels are honest—as anxious to speak and believe the truth as are Christians—and if in converse with them we ignore truths which they may advance, we not only fail to convince them of our truths, but put an end to all hope of reaching them; for our failure to admit the evident truth which they advance begets in them contempt for the one who is not honest enough to admit one truth because he does not see how it can be reconciled to another. Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter [R9: page 3] what it contradicts, and rely for ability to afterwards harmonize it with others upon "The Spirit of truth, which shall guide you into all truth," as Jesus promised.

 

And yet, Pastor Russell’s understanding of scripture was relatively simple.

 

[R397: page 7]

THE BODY, THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.

We are always sorry to differ with those we love; yet, when necessary for the truth's sake, we must do it in the spirit of meekness—the spirit of love—the spirit of Christ. We believe that it is our Lord's wish that we "contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints"; therefore we "have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God." We find that among the Apostles there were differences. (Acts 15; Gal. 2:11; 1 Tim. 1:19-20; 2 Tim. 2:16-18.) Hence, we need not be surprised if such should be the case in this day. But should the faithful servant ignore doctrinal differences to maintain peace? Did Paul do so? No; as faithful servants, we should contend earnestly, at the same time striving to maintain unity of spirit in the bonds of peace, yet never sacrificing truth for either unity or peace, else we should not be able to grow in grace and knowledge—up to a stature of perfection in Christ.

 

In its last two issues, Zion's Day Star presents, as new light, the idea that the body of Christ—the church—is different from the Bride of Christ—the church. They claim that the "body" means those who overcome the world following the example of Jesus, their Head (which we always held); but deny that the bride is the same class of overcomers. They claim that the body, with the head, constitute the Bridegroom, who, in due time, will be united to the Bride; and they claim that the Bride company, through weakness of the flesh, are not overcomers of the world, but are overcome by the world [the class whom both they and we have always heretofore recognized as the servant company of Rev. 7:9-17].

 

The question arises, is this true—have we heretofore labored under a misapprehension? We are not to conclude that because it is different from what we had thought, therefore it is erroneous; neither are we to conclude that because it is new, therefore it is new light. It might be new error. It might be darkness. Neither should we judge of its truth or falsity by the measure of our love for those who advocate or oppose the view. This is a lesson which all need to learn: that while human teachers are necessary, and should be esteemed very highly for their work's sake (1 Thes. 5:13), yet they are to be respected and heeded only so far as they can show us a thus saith the Lord, for their teachings. Let us, then, inquire of the Lord what is truth on this subject, and receive his reply from his Word.

 

Now, how many here that criticize the Watchtower, can compare a straight forward truth, when Satan has taken over the thoughts and minds with such pervasiveness with the seriousness that GOD holds each and every one of us accountable for leading people, astray.

So, stick around, and fight the good fight for your creator. Don’t allow the whims of disloyalty win. That should be the primary focus for a true believer!!!

Believe me, there’s a disfellowshipped ex-bethelite, and his loyalist, rejoicing that another loyal witness bit the dust, so stick around and prove them wrong!!!!

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

J.R. Ewing

I thought you were doing fine ... just fine ... until the last three sentences.

They do not seem to be related to what you stated before them.

Could you be more clear?

[TrueTomHarley]

12 hours ago, bruceq said:

We know. Satan can say things that are true also. But Titus 1:16 - he is not approved by God anymore than a blogger is who upvotes apostates and agrees with their haughty attitudes or "special interpretations"

In the end it is about not stumbling 'one of these little ones who believe' so as to avoid having a millstone thrown about your neck.

If upvoting villains on the rare occasions they behave can trigger someone's stumbling, should I assume the right to do it? It doesn't matter whether I've figured it shouldn't trigger stumbling. It only matters that it does, or can. Should I give the impression that I am having a most pleasant party here with characters who loathe everything Jehovah's Witnesses stand for? Isn't this an "if eating meat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again" situation?

JTR will shed many a tear, but hopefully he will understand as my upvoting dwindles. No WWI 1914 Christmas truce here, I think it must be..