WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

It is OBVIOUS to me that Jehovah does not consider warfare to be murder ... and I have no wars planned, or any murders planned .... I am just trying to understand the theocratic legal principle of WHY?.

As far as I know ... no nation on Earth considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, either ....  although it is premeditated killing of humans.

They are using the same criteria that Jehovah God established millennia ago .... and which will be used at Armageddon.

OTHERWISE....

Jehovah God would be a murderer.

See the problem?

 

[Srecko Sostar]

Be murdered or be killed ... for victim is the same end. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

.... more to the point as to why we need to understand the difference of WHY Jehovah God makes the distinction .... because it is crystal clear THAT HE DOES.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

 James I think you must be bored. 

" no nation on Earth considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, either .... "

But every nation ON the Earth is 'part of this world' that belongs to the Devil. So why would a Christian even care about the nation's viewpoint. The nation's viewpoint is the Devil's viewpoint. That is why there is so much war.

Are you concerned because America was built on mass murder. Well the British Empire was also built on mass murder too. BUT if we are Christians  WE are no part of that world...

So, Jesus said 'Love your neighbour as yourself'. Neither God nor Christ gives us permission to kill or murder anyone. No matter what the 'world' says is right.

But when the Judgement arrives then God / Christ and the angels, will carry out ' premeditated killing of humans '.  They have the right to do so, we do not. They know how to judge, we do not. 

 

 

[Arauna]

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

no nation on Earth considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, either

This makes us the only nation on earth which is different.  Isaiah 2:2-4 clearly states that the worshippers of 'Jehovah' would flock together to his spiritual temple from all over the earth and  " learn war no more".   We are true christians because other Christian's still go to war and kill (or approve of it under the excuse of nationalism.)  1 John says that if you love jehovah you will love your neighbour. Who is your neighbour?  Everyone. 

To go back to the time of Israel: I know of only one time jehovah allowed Israel to do pre-emptive war.  As Mr Harley above quoted the scripture:  the amorites were so wicked that jehovah wanted them exterminated .....but still gave them 400 years ( to hopefully change.).... until their extreme wickedness warranted the severe  punishment.    Remember, the canaanites were innocent child slayers........ each life they took had an accounting with Jehovah....... and that is apart from all the other degenerate sex worship and practices. Israel would remove them from the land but in this action they would have to prove their faith in jehovah to help them in combat and also show obedience to do it thoroughly.

Jehovah allowed Israel to grow into a nation in captivity in Egypt - not in Canaan. In Canaan they could have broken into tribes or gone after canaanite gods. This not only preserved their unity but allowed them to grow strong as a nation while having protection of another great military power.  They had their own area where they lived in the Nile delta (separated) until they were oppressed by Pharoah because they grew mighty in numbers.

Jehovah did not take Israel out of Egypt by direct route through philistine territory because he was afraid that they would not face up to war immediately after leaving.  Read it this week in bible.  He took them via the red sea and fought the battle for them.  Pharoah's army perished.   The nation left the most powerful country on earth - in PEACE - with no war.  That was a miracle!

After having jehovah pamper them with food, giving them a cloud to lead them by day and night, and other miracles which proves that He exists - they initially still did not have the faith and courage to fight the Canaanites.  They then spent an extra 40 years wandering the desert because they did not have enough faith......  They feared the Rephaim.  (Goliath was a rephaim). Those 40 years of  wandering forged them into a strong nation ready to take on the task ahead.  War was hand to hand combat.  Each individual needed to build their faith.

The war with the amelekites was a defence war because the amelekites came down to attack them when they asked to pass through their land on the highway peacefully.  After this the fear of the God of  Israel came upon Jericho. 

All other times Israel went to war it was in defence.  jehovah allowed them to defend themselves after they had been severely oppressed....... because they had fallen into the extremely dirty false worship of the land.

The philistines did not allow Israel to have impliments to sharpen their agricultural equipment.  The Medianites used to raid their food so that Gideon worked at night..... so it was not easy for them until they cried to jehovah and another judge was called up to free them.

David was in trouble with jehovah because he had a sensus taken of the able bodied men who could fight. Pestilence then made the numbers of the sensus uncertain. Jehovah did not want them to think of war.  While they served him they would be safe.   David was not allowed to build the temple because he was a man of war. 

They were not supposed to make alliances with other nations to fight war - or fight their wars for them with other alliances.  They were supposed to trust in jehovah exclusively.

The 12 tribes went to war in hand to hand combat but the levite priests did not - they were holy - separate. 

Solomon collected chariots and horses but it was against the instructions of jehovah.....

So their are many indications in the old testament which tells us how jehovah feels about war.  

[TrueTomHarley]

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It is OBVIOUS to me that Jehovah does not consider warfare to be murder

Manslaughter then. They’re still going to pay for it come the Great Day.

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

using the same criteria that Jehovah God established...which will be used at Armageddon. OTHERWISE....Jehovah God would be a murderer. See the problem?

No. I don’t. 

The NY driving instructor asked how many in his class thought driving was a right and how many thought it was a privilege. Some thought one, some the other. The answer is that it is a privilege—screw it up and they’ll take it away. Same with Jehovah, the Giver of life

Human governments take life away. They are not the giver of it, though. They abuse their authority. They’ll pay. But their entire existence is an abuse of authority, so when it comes to killing people—throw it on the stack.

[Thinking]

10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So far ... no one has answered the question "Why?" .... but have used many words not to.

They have brother...and it shouldn’t require to much insight to see that...perhaps you may need to rephrase the question

[Thinking]

James he is the creator of the Law...without him no law....no creation...no mankind...

as such he can decide who’s life to end and who’s not to because they are not following his Laws.

Thus  the lawmaker has the right to take a life without it  being classified as murder,

You yourself have used many words to ask a question which really as someone pointed out to you... answered yourself...which leaves me laughing at myself for being so crazy to reply to this thread...but it is a question that others have asked so I’ve gleaned from others here on how to help someone who has the same question.
Job 37:23

Understanding  the Almighty is beyond our reach
He is great in Power and  he never violates his justice and abundant righteousness.

But you already knew all this didn’t you.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

For whatever it’s worth, If I see evidence of military service at someone’s home, I will ask about it. When there is a plaque that a son or daughter is a proud Marine or Navy or Army member, I’ll make the point that you cannot have anything but respect for someone willing to lay his life on the line for what he believes in. If there is some old fellow who identifies with any branch of military service, I’ll hear him out. Everyone has a story to tell, but nobody wants to hear it. I’ll hear them out—providing I’m not keeping an entire car group waiting as I do so. 

If someone’s flag is all wrapped up around the flagpole—the way the wind will do that—I’ll unwrap it while waiting for them to answer the door. And if I see a flag flying in tatters, I get mad—if you’re going to do it, do it right.

I think of that experience—it was published in one of the old yearbooks, I think, of the teacher, for some sort of a civics lesson, telling a Non-Witness and a Witness child to salute the Canadian flag. The first did. The second did not. Next came the direction to spit on the flag. The first did. The second did not. “Why don’t you spit on the flag?” the question was asked, “you didn’t salute it.” The answer was that the flag was a national symbol and as such should be treated with respect, even if not given an act of worship that Witnesses consider a salute to be—the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that way as well. But maybe more telling is the “patriotism” of the first child, who salutes on command and spits on command.

There is often a vague mutual respect between members of the military and members of Jehovah’s Witnesses, each of whom recognizes that the other is not rabble and is amenable to discipline. They also recognize about each other that neither harbors racism—people rise and fall independent of race (speaking of the American military here—I’m not in position to testify as to other nations). And it was at the 1958 Divine Will International Convention in New York City (Yankee Stadium & adjacent Polo Grounds) that the U.S. military sent observers to report on how it was possible for Witness volunteers to provide a full-course meal to their quarter-million conventioneers within a short noontime interval—this as related in a Special Report on that event that can be googled and downloaded. (this info supplied by B.F. Shultz, the researcher who is never wrong, who is lauded for “almost a fanatical attention to detail.”)

Since Jehovah’s Witnesses are politically neutral and will not wage war, one might surmise that any encounter with a militarily aligned householder will prove disagreeable, and this can happen. But it doesn’t have to happen, and usually does not by approaching the person with respect and reference to the above points. Often it can be worked into conversation how odd it is that an individual is serving his country with great feeling and sacrifice, yet if he were in any other country, he would feel exactly the same way with regard to that country—and isn’t it strange that the earth should be divided up that way? Many military and especially veterans are mellowed with their service. I wouldn’t want to go up against a General Patton, who wanted to shoot anyone sitting out the fray, but most are more reflective. My own father, who was a WWII vet and who left religion as a young man and never returned, commented  (to my surprise) on the small town square war memorial of the hamlet we were passing through, “They shouldn’t do this—it just glorifies it.”

[Arauna]

29 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

one might surmise that any encounter with a militarily aligned householder will prove disagreeable, and this can happen

I have already told my story on this forum. How I was interrogated when I became an American citizen.  My interviewer was hostile  because I requested for the clause to defend USA to be omitted.

I did not push bible verses on him.  I had already determined that he was a great patriot and replied accordingly.  I said that I have such great respect for life because this is all we have from God - our life is precious.   I answered that it is a pity that some people have given everything they have to the country they love and are fired when they have emotional issues due to deployment. Some do not receive all the medical care they need (this was the case at the time) and I added that they come home in body bags and the press is not allowed to honor them in death by photographing their return.  

The day he gave me my citizenship he was all smiles when he congratulated me.

My father also fought in North Africa, Italy, went to Japan with the Americans and fought in Korea.......  these people do not like war to be glorified. 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everyone has a story to tell, but nobody wants to hear it. I’ll hear them out—providing I’m not keeping an entire car group waiting as I do so.

Have to admit I have never been alert to flags and war memorabilia, but I'm sure it puts the householder at ease to let them talk about it. Of course, if they are older and there is a picture of a younger son, I am prepared to learn about a worst-case scenario, and to talk about the resurrection hope. The image you invoke above made me revisit all those times I had to come back to the car and say I was sorry. Haven't done that for years, and then only when the car group was a group of pioneers who appreciated the break. But we never work that kind of territory anymore in the suburbs. We even keep RVs down to a minimum,until they become studies. Back when pioneering, I spent most of my time sitting down with RVs and BSs, but now we barely ever go inside a house.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I think of that experience—it was published in one of the old yearbooks, I think, of the teacher, for some sort of a civics lesson, telling a Non-Witness and a Witness child to salute the Canadian flag.

That was 1990, and repeated a couple of times since then. A great experiment, but one that would get the principal and teacher fired. One thing that story made me think about is how it is a terrible story to try to prove that those who salute are "worshiping" the flag. After all, would a teacher and principal ask a student to spit on the very thing they are worshiping? Would they announce to an entire class that they had just asked a student to spit on an object of worship, and announce that one of them had done so?

For that matter, the same goes for those who fly it in tatters, and I've seen plenty of those.

In spite of all this, the point we make about flag salute, in general, is still very appropriate. The flag is a national symbol that directs attention to the "nation" as if it were a god. The flag is treated exactly like the symbols of gods in those nations that worship pagan gods and their idols. Even the national music that is intended to build up the reverential focus of the nation as a god serves the same purpose. (I like that Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego heard the national music as the signal to worship a new national idol, and that they were often referred to as the three Hebrew children in Babylon. A helpful reminder to school age children who face something similar.)

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

the U.S. military sent observers to report on how it was possible for Witness volunteers to provide a full-course meal to their quarter-million conventioneers within a short noontime interval

That was always amazing, and similar comments from outsiders were announced at the end of many of the assemblies. (Rank-and-file Bethelites, of course, often noticed a lot of other similarities with the military. Especially during those years when it was a four-year enlistment, and they would worry about being dishonorably discharged.)

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But it doesn’t have to happen, and usually does not by approaching the person with respect and reference to the above points.

Excellent reminder.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

yet if he were in any other country, he would feel exactly the same way with regard to that country

That's certainly brave. There are places where even angels fear to tread!

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“They shouldn’t do this—it just glorifies it.”

And glorified for what purpose? Probably an acknowledgement that more wars are likely on the horizon, and that future wars would not get the kind of support they "require" get without such glorification of those in the past.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

We even keep RVs down to a minimum,until they become studies. 

Around here there are quite a few that do just the opposite—focus on return visits—and you know the challenge of finding return visits home. It drives me nuts, and I am adamant not to be part of a large car-group, sometimes even a van, doing it. Occasionally I am outmaneuvered and when that happens I lose all interest in the ministry, take the back seat in the van, and nap or compose a blog post.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

That was 1990, and repeated a couple of times since then. A great experiment, but one that would get the principal and teacher fired.

I would think so. The only way I could get my head around it was to read it was in a different country.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

similar comments from outsiders were announced at the end of many of the assemblies.

The concluding speaker told how a cop had said, with regard to some pretty obnoxious protestors, “Why don’t you just pop them one?” As to the one of the military monitoring mealtime, I had just about concluded that it was an urban legend—I had a Mormon tell me something similar about his people—but then Shultz told me where it was published. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Have to admit I have never been alert to flags and war memorabilia, but I'm sure it puts the householder at ease to let them talk about it.

We all get better at handling challenging situations as we age ourselves. Running into the clergyman is another—or a group plainly immersed in conversation and directly in your path. One fellow eyed me cautiously as I approached. He was lugging heavy boxes from a moving van. “You look like someone that wants to talk about the Bible!” I said jokingly. He laughed so hard he nearly dropped the box.