WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

 

WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

It seems clear to me that Jehovah allows civil governments to run their own affairs as they see fit, and even has no objection to them judging and executing wrongdoers ... and even commands us to be in subjection to these governments, as even the very worst of them are better than anarchy.

People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder".

There is a very real difference.  A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... whether it be a government the size of a continent .. or an extended family sized tribe of Jewish sheepherders living way out in the middle of nowhere, living in tents, governed by a patriarch.

I have not been able to find in the Bible where actual warfare, committed by any sovereign group, is considered to be murder ... either by the perpetrators of the war, or the defenders of the war against them, except in the case of "war crimes" against non combatants and other cases.

Did you know it is legal to drop napalm on civilians in war, from an aircraft ... but not from a flame thrower from a soldier on the ground?

....but I digress.

Even people that warred against the Jews  were not considered murderers..... they were considered warriors.

I am working on getting this all straight in my mind now ... as there seems to be a profound truth buried in this stream of thought, somewhere, but I cannot get it to crystallize, or perhaps it is approaching 3AM, and I am too tired to think about it.

But whatever it is that is ... what profound basic principle that I am missing ...is based on having a correct answer  as to WHY ... WHY does God NOT consider warfare to be murder.

I suspect when I figure it out, it will be like driving down a road in a southerly direction, thinking you are going North ... and then you see that landmark or sign that indicates you are really going South ... and that feeling you get when your whole frame of reference rotates in your head, like the world just rotated 180 degrees.

It's like deja vu, and geography, combined.

Perhaps my premise is faulty, but I don't think so.

Please feel free to destroy my premise, or my stream of thought, or my conclusions.

I try to be "loyal" to whatever is true, and not an agenda of defending an agenda.

Knowing "WHY?" things are the way they are, is the key to good philosophy.

Bad philosophy will waste our lives, which are pitifully short.
 

 

 

 

[Arauna]

Jesus changed everything.  The law was a ' tutor' to christ.   So now we must love our neighbours as he did.  He gave his life for his friends  - we must be able to do the same. 

If I love you in this way and you love me in this way, the world will be a wonderful place. However, most people are not prepared to give up their own ego and their own selfish goals to serve Christ properly -  let alone give their life for someone else. 

If you are prepared to give your life it actually means you value their life  as your own..... giving more than what is expected. 

James 4: 1 "What is the source of the wars and fights among you? Do they not originate from your fleshly desires that carry on a conflict within you"

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

25 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

It seems clear to me that Jehovah allows civil governments to run their own affairs as they see fit, and even has no objection to them judging and executing wrongdoers ... and even commands us to be in subjection to these governments, as even the very worst of them are better than anarchy.

People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder".

There is a very real difference.  A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... whether it be a government the size of a continent .. or an extended family sized tribe of Jewish sheepherders living way out in the middle of nowhere, living in tents, governed by a patriarch.

I have not been able to find in the Bible where actual warfare, committed by any sovereign group, is considered to be murder ... either by the perpetrators of the war, or the defenders of the war against them, except in the case of "war crimes" against non combatants and other cases.

Did you know it is legal to drop napalm on civilians in war, from an aircraft ... but not from a flame thrower from a soldier on the ground?

....but I digress.

Even people that warred against the Jews  were not considered murderers..... they were considered warriors.

I am working on getting this all straight in my mind now ... as there seems to be a profound truth buried in this stream of thought, somewhere, but I cannot get it to crystallize, or perhaps it is approaching 3AM, and I am too tired to think about it.

But whatever it is that is ... what profound basic principle that I am missing ...is based on having a correct answer  as to WHY ... WHY does God NOT consider warfare to be murder.

I suspect when I figure it out, it will be like driving down a road in a southerly direction, thinking you are going North ... and then you see that landmark or sign that indicates you are really going South ... and that feeling you get when your whole frame of reference rotates in your head, like the world just rotated 180 degrees.

It's like deja vu, and geography, combined.

Perhaps my premise is faulty, but I don't think so.

Please feel free to destroy my premise, or my stream of thought, or my conclusions.

I try to be "loyal" to whatever is true, and not an agenda of defending an agenda.

Knowing "WHY?" things are the way they are, is the key to good philosophy.

Bad philosophy will waste our lives, which are pitifully short.
 

 

 

 

 

If you truly believe that war is ok with God then I think you have a problem with your way of thinking.

What God allows and what God likes / agrees with, are probably two totally different things. 

We know that God does not involve Himself in the daily running of the world. The 'world' belongs to the Devil and God has no interest in 'putting little bits of it right'.   

You say that God "has no objection to them .... executing wrongdoers"

Do you have proof of that ? 

Quote "People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder". "

Quote " A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... "

Then that same government that conscripts people into the armed forces is doing likewise. But I presume your disagree with conscription ? 

I think the idea of being a Christian in one sense, is that we take Bible truth and learn from it. By doing so we try to live by Bible principles. One such principle is. 

‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’s ³⁸  This is the greatest and first commandment. ³⁹  The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbour as yourself.

Jesus here quoted from the LAW given to Moses. But as Christians we should live by the principles of that law. 

‘You must love your neighbour as yourself. 

So, you must decide who your neighbour is James ? 

Could you be loving your neighbour if you were deliberately entering their land with intention of killing them ? 

Stop being American James. If you are a true servant of God then you are no longer American.  Jesus said His Kingdom was no part of this world. So James, just a kind suggestion, stop being part of this world. 

 

 

 

[Arauna]

1 minute ago, 4Jah2me said:

says "Thou shalt not murder". "

Spot on.  

[Thinking]

I think I know what your trying to say..but perhaps I’ve got it wrong....

I may very well have this wrong but Jehovah is in actual fact engaged in warfare now.

Revelation 12:7then war broke out in heaven and Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels.

He was forced Into a state of warfare since Satan rebelled.

Joshua 5:13,14 Identifies Michael as his Prince of Jehovah’s army....and also ...

when the Israelites came out of Egypt they marched out in Military formation.

even when the angel stood guard at the Garden of Eden ..he used a flaming sword ( weapon of war ) to block their re entering 

warfare carried out by Jehovah is righteous ..

warfare carried out by mere man for mans ruler ship over man is not righteous nor condoned by him, he would still consider that murder...as all warfare is governed and caused by his enemy Satan a man slayer And the ruler of the world at this time.

He is only tolerating mans warfare or allowing it because it is not his appointed time....

He uses humans as earthly agents to achieve his plan...when it suits him...and that involves warfare at times because Satan is using man to fight his war against Jehovah.

Proverbs 16:4,,,Jehovah has made everything work for his purpose even the wicked for the day of disaster.

At this present time Satan is the Prince of air and ruler of this world and he has chosen to fight by warfare.....he chose the weapon...not Jehovah .

All warfare is murder unless it has been instructed to be carried out via the  Chief of His Armies Michael.

Jehovah would never condone warfare amongst men,..and from what I have read he would consider all of those deaths a unwarranted evil murder.....

I cannot find anything in the scriptures at this stage to suggest otherwise...but by all means if I’m wrong please correct me....it’s a interesting question and it’s deeper than most of us realize.

Basically all those Jehovah instructed to be put to the sword were allowed hundreds of years to change and he allowed them to go to the fullness of their error....they had become irredeemable in his eyes...and hurting his people and name and his plan....and they would NEVER change.

 

 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am working on getting this all straight in my mind now

I was pretty sure you had already broken into the Watchtower HQ and added the last sentence to a paragraph in a very recent Watchtower we just studied: (November 2019)

*** w19 November p. 17 par. 13 Are You Maintaining Your “Large Shield of Faith”? ***
13 Imagine the scene. A group of soldiers spend the morning training with their swords, but one of their company is missing. That soldier is in town setting up a food shop. In the evening, the soldiers spend time inspecting their armor and sharpening their swords. But the one who owns the shop spends his time preparing food to sell the next day. The next morning, however, an enemy launches a surprise attack. Which soldier is more likely to act appropriately and earn the approval of his commanding officer? And whom would you want standing beside you—a soldier who focused on being prepared or the one who was distracted?

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But the one who owns the shop spends his time preparing food to sell the next day.....And whom would you want standing beside you—a soldier who focused on being prepared or the one who was distracted?

I love pizza!

Isn’t that what the old hen used to say when she wanted us to stay on topic? Glad she’s on my side.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

So far ... no one has answered the question "Why?" .... but have used many words not to.

[Arauna]

28 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Why?" ....

Our warfare now is only spiritual.   

However, the entire world under satan's control is still committing pre-meditated murder by training to kill others in war.   Jehovah will judge  each one of them if they do not repent by taking advantage of Jesus' ransom sacrifice.

The world and its war will soon disappear when jehovah removes all those who benefit from war.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So far ... no one has answered the question "Why?" .... but have used many words not to.

Because you have made an untrue statement pretending it is a question, and people are not being drawn into it. 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So far ... no one has answered the question "Why?" .... but have used many words not to.

I might be reading you wrong but I think the answer is that once God allows human governments to exist, he pretty gives them free reign. It is not for nothing that the Bible likens them to wild beasts. 

He allows them to exist for just the reason you stated—virtually any human government is better than anarchy. But they are not his idea. To referee them would suggest that they are. Sometimes I read Matthew 24:14 and explain that the end that will come is not that of the earth, for it did nothing wrong. It is the end of a system of 200 eternally squabbling nations pushing at each other—surely that was not his idea. But he lets it remain. It beats the alternative. It is a stopgap until “thy kingdom comes.”

Can it do things that are murderous? Well, sure—but the entire arrangement is murderous, a rebellion against God. Even though it is a best-case scenario of that rebellion, it is still murderous. God doesn’t get in there and mediate every little thing—it’s not his arrangement and he interferes hardly at all.

One place where he did interfere is covered in this week’s Bible reading—in God’s promise to Abram. I don’t know about you, but for me an early question that had to be addressed when I began studying the Bible was, “Why would God slaughter the Canaanites—man, woman, and child? This passage helped:

Know for certain that your offspring will be foreigners in a land not theirs and that the people there will enslave them and afflict them for 400 years....But they will return here in the fourth generation, because the error of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure. (Gen 15:13,16)

He gave them 400 years advanced warning! Granted, it’s not everything. It doesn’t quite cover the little children. But I used to explain that when children die today due to parental neglect, people don’t blame God—they blame the parents. Same here—it was for parents to train their children and they neglected to do it. Of course, today people blame God for everything, so the above line doesn’t wash as it once did. 

I wrote a post long ago about why God permits suffering, and an atheist I would swap comments with couldn’t stand it. It hadn’t been written with him in mind. It had been full of appeals to the scriptures, none of which he accepted. So I began to wonder if it couldn’t be repackaged in a way that would appeal to an atheist. I rearranged everything, squashed some ideas, elevated others, and  came up with the following. It is more or less relevant here. See what you think:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/why-do-bad-things-happen-updated-for-atheists-sort-of.html

 

[Srecko Sostar]

In Croatian we don't have two sort of words as in English (murder vs kill) so i had to help myself a little with few google searching.

 

murder

noun -  the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

 

kill

verb - to cause someone or something to die

 

Question

One from my 5-year-old girl after hearing about Bin Laden: What’s the difference between being murdered and being killed?
Maxine, Kew

Answer

** Definitive **
Name: Laurence, Chiswick
Qualification: Criminal barrister
Answer: If whoever shot and killed him believed they were working in self-defense, then it would be a killing and not murder – and self-defence can be a pre-emptive strike. We’ll obviously never know what his motives were.

Name: Joe, Battersea
Qualification: Not enough
Answer: If you murder somebody, your intention would be solely to kill them. If your intent wasn’t to kill them but you do, then it is not considered murder. Murder is a killing where the intent is proved.
(James O’Brien: You’re right. But this doesn’t answer how the killing of Bin Laden wasn’t murder.)

Name: Michael, Grayshott
Qualification:
Answer: I think it’s a killing We are in a de facto state of war with Al Qaeda. The action in Afghanistan is sanctioned by the UN. The mission would have been to capture or kill Bin Laden.
(James O’Brien: But under the Geneva Convention, you’re not allowed to shoot an unarmed man, are you?)

WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

In case of Israel Nation perhaps because of this:

Rules for War

20 “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and you see horses, chariots, and many more people than you have, you must not be afraid of them. The Lord your God is with you—and he brought you out of Egypt.

² “When you go to the battle, the priest must go to the soldiers and speak to them. The priest will say, ‘Men of Israel, listen to me! Today you are going against your enemies in battle. Don’t lose your courage. Don’t be troubled or upset. Don’t be afraid of the enemy. The Lord your God is going with you to help you fight against your enemies. He will help you win!’...............

⁰ “When you go to attack a city, you must first offer peace to the people there.  If they accept your offer and open their gates, all the people in that city will become your slaves and be forced to work for you.  But if the city refuses to make peace with you and fights against you, you should surround the city.  And when the Lord your God lets you take the city, you must kill all the men in it.  But you may take for yourselves the women, the children, the cattle, and everything else in the city. You may use all these things. The Lord your God has given these things to you.  That is what you must do to all the cities that are very far from you—the cities that are not in the land where you will live.

¹⁶ “But when you take cities in the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you must kill everyone.  You must completely destroy all the people—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. The Lord your God has commanded you to do this. 

It can be said how to murder "enemies" who don't want to be your slaves was justified and legalized under Israel Legislative. Israel had Civil Government, and Enemies also had Civil Government. It seems how Israel Government has expanded the term "wrongdoer" not only for own people, but wanted to become Policeman for surrounding nations too .... and to colonized them. 

"To Murder enemies" is concept that existing in mind of God. Prophesied "enmity" in Genesis book must have only one solution: Us or Them. Murder is only option. Winner will interpret this act as "legal". Coexistence is not possible.

In Bible terminology, God created Sovereign Government. But in the same time devil done the same, and God never (in Bible text) negate fact and reality how he also constitute Sovereign Government. If God allowed him to even start something as Rebellion Movement it is interesting how God also allowed him to Legalized  that same Rebellion. Devil has Territory, has Subjects, has Law - and that for sure is fundamental precondition to form Sovereign Government.  

If Final Solution will come someday in the future, perhaps that will be fight between this two Legal and Sovereign Entities. Warriors (on one or both side) who will die in the battle will die with pride for king and homeland :)))

This is just one aspect that first came to my mind after reading Your topic :))