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ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

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3 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

But the Revelation was given by God to Jesus then to John in the last decade of the first century after Jesus' ascension and He said the things were to take place shortly (2Pet 3:8); not about things that were already in effect like Jesus sitting at God's right hand which occurred in 33CE. 

But Revelation also includes revelations about things that have already occurred.

Note that the expressions about Jesus' power and salvation and authority and kingdom are part of the introduction to Revelation, before any vision has been recorded:

(Revelation 1:5, 6) May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

This is also about past events which had already made those who conquered to be a kingdom. Jesus had already set them free from sins (salvation) by his own blood. He was already the firstborn from the dead, the King of Kings, the Faithful Witness. He is called the Lamb as a reference to this past event. Jesus was already called King of Kings in this introduction.

Much of what John sees is not just things to come in the future, but also "things that are" -- things already true.

(Revelation 1:19) 19 So write down the things you saw, and the things that are, and the things that will take place after these.

This is a feature of "revelation" in the Bible, where sometimes what is revealed is what has already happened or is currently happening. Note that this is true when the "curtain" is peeled back at the start of the book of Job. It's even part of the revelation explained by Micaiah mentioned earlier. Granted that the overall goal of Revelation is all about how these things that are true will culminate in the future for a final fulfillment, but this does not discount all the verses that show that salvation, kingdom, power and authority were already given to Jesus at his resurrection and his sitting at God's right hand. The idea that Revelation is really about Jehovah's control of the entire "sweeping history of Christianity" past, present and future, is also implied in names like "the first and the last" and above, "the One who is, and who was, and who is coming."

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29 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

It coincides with Daniel 7:13,14,

As an aside, take note of which kingdom this fourth beast must refer to.

(Daniel 7:14-22) 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed. 15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me because the visions of my head frightened me. 16 I went near to one of those who were standing there to ask him about the true meaning of this. So he replied and made known to me the interpretation of these things. 17 “‘These huge beasts, four in number, are four kings who will stand up from the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom forever, yes, forever and ever.’ 19 “Then I wanted to know more about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others; it was extraordinarily fearsome, with iron teeth and copper claws, and it was devouring and crushing, and trampling down what was left with its feet; 20 and about the ten horns on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly and whose appearance was bigger than that of the others. 21 “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom. 23 "This is what he said: 'As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth...'"

Our current understanding is that this fourth beast must be Rome, and yet, during the time of this beast was also the time when Jesus was given the kingdom.

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53 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Our current understanding is that this fourth beast must be Rome, and yet, during the time of this beast was also the time when Jesus was given the kingdom.

Lot's of info to go through but I couldn't overlook this one. What would you say the particular "horn" making war with the "holy ones" represents?

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Point taken about Revelation also encompassing history of past, but I will have to look up what fourth beast represents currently. I know it was Rome, and you have to place it with what it said in Revelation about the 7th world power Anglo-American and the eighth beast, image of the world beast.  Will check it later when I get back from field service.


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12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Before I read your name, Gnosis Pithos, I read your first sentence and still didn't have a clue who you were. The second sentence was an immediate give-away, however, based purely on the style. I even knew exactly what city would come up if I looked up the IP address, which I won't publish here, because not everyone has access to this information.


... and I had two surplus North Korean middle range ballistic missiles ... READY TO GO!

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On 26/6/2017 at 5:56 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

that God's Word lights the path, and to see this light as becoming brighter, as knowledge, understanding, and application of the same word increases,

it has happened before ...the progressive change of understanding, (examples) :
(Mark 8:17)
“. . .Do YOU not yet perceive and get the meaning? . . .”
(Luke 24:31, 32)
“. . .At that their eyes were fully opened and they recognized him; and he disappeared from them. 
32 And they said to each other: 
“Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?””

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13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Before I read your name, Gnosis Pithos, I read your first sentence and still didn't have a clue who you were. The second sentence was an immediate give-away, however, based purely on the style. I even knew exactly what city would come up if I looked up the IP address, which I won't publish here, because not everyone has access to this information. I glanced over at the name, and also recognized it as a name you used a couple years ago on jw-archive, where you also made it clear that it was only one of several alternate names you were using. When I did finally look up the IP, I was a bit surprised that "Gnosis Pithos" used the EXACT same IP address as Allen Smith, AllenSmith and JWTheologian etc, etc. Since your previous explanation was that JWTheologian might be another person in the same household as you, all I can say is that you must have a crowded house.

Anyway, I don't really care about that, I just thought it was a funny experience. But, no matter what, I'm wondering if you might be able to explain some of what you meant. For example, can you explain what the understanding was (from 1874, 1878, 1881 to 1914) that people cannot grasp? What had these Bible students under the direction of Russell figured out in 1915, about how the generations before 1914 would not experience?


I think JWs ONLY are interested in 1. reading and 2. explaning / trying to explain the words of the Bible.
if not so, WHY everyone else, when taking about "the last days" ...  always refering to the JWs ?!
I would like to think so. 


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19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

As far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with no hellfire, no Trinity, political neutrality, and not going to war for example. I consider the last one (no warfare) a major way in which we show we love our neighbor and even love our enemy. Those Christian concepts are rather difficult to justify by participating directly in warfare.

YOU may not, but it was one of the foundational points to prove that jw's had the truth. You already know this as you have extensively researched historical publications for many other things. 

War is a whole other topic that I would welcome a discussion with you. I'd like to understand more on your point of view and discuss scripture about it. 

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2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Lot's of info to go through but I couldn't overlook this one. What would you say the particular "horn" making war with the "holy ones" represents?

This could get really fun, and cover a lot of different topics, and you know that I probably couldn't stop myself from joining in.  But another "thread" would be better. I'm really not anxious to share too many ideas on Daniel and Revelation, even though I think there are several places where simpler and clearer understandings are possible. But I'm not trying to give the impression that I "know" anything more than you or anyone else on all these matters. And I think I've probably caused enough confusion or commotion in the way I brought up 1914 this time.

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Agree that anything relating to the future also relates to the past. So I agree Revelation also mentions current and past events. However, by its very name, Revelation, it reveals things not  before mentioned. These things are to occur in the future from the time of their revelation.  It also coincides with the book of Daniel which also relates to the present in Daniel’s time but mainly on the future as these texts confirm.

I will therefore print those quotes which help to identify the players and the periods in question.


Our current understanding is that this fourth beast must be Rome, and yet, during the time of this beast was also the time when Jesus was given the kingdom.  JWInsider


The quotes below reveal in a satisfying way the time periods we wish to understand. 

 The prophecy of Daniel is for the time of the end

(Daniel 8:17) So he came near to where I was standing, but when he came I was so terrified that I fell facedown. He said to me: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.”

(Daniel 8:26) “What was said in the vision about the evenings and the mornings is true, but you must keep the vision secret, for it refers to a time many days from now.”

(Daniel 12:9) Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.

(Daniel 12:4) “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”


The fourth beast is Rome – but there are extensions into our time

 (see paras. 24,25 of chapter 9 below)

  Pay Attention to Daniel’s Prophecy! quote below.

*** dp chap. 9 pp. 130-131 pars. 6-7 Who Will Rule the World? ***

6 “As for these huge beasts,” said God’s angel, “because they are four, there are four kings that will stand up from the earth.” (Daniel 7:17) Clearly, the angel identified the four beasts that Daniel saw as “four kings.” Thus, these beasts signify world powers. But which ones?

7 Bible expositors commonly link Daniel’s dream-vision of four beasts with Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of an immense image. For example, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary states: “Chapter 7 [of Daniel] parallels chapter 2.” The Wycliffe Bible Commentary says: “It is generally agreed that the succession of four Gentile dominions . . . is the same here [in Daniel chapter 7] as that contemplated in [Daniel] chapter 2.” The four world powers represented by the four metals of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream were the Babylonian Empire (gold head), Medo-Persia (silver breasts and arms), Greece (copper belly and thighs), and the Roman Empire (iron legs). (Daniel 2:32, 33) Let us see how these kingdoms correspond to the four huge beasts that Daniel saw.


*** dp chap. 9 pp. 136-148 pars. 18-39 Who Will Rule the World? ***

The Roman World Power, however, did not end with the removal of its last emperor in Rome in 476 C.E. For many centuries, papal Rome continued to exercise political, and especially religious, domination over Europe. It did so through the feudal system, in which most inhabitants of Europe were subject to a lord, then to a king. And all kings acknowledged the authority of the pope. Thus the Holy Roman Empire with papal Rome as its focal point dominated world affairs throughout that long period of history called the Dark Ages.

19 Who can deny that the fourth beast was “different from all the other kingdoms”? (Daniel 7:7, 19, 23) In this regard, historian H. G. Wells wrote: “This new Roman power . . . was in several respects a different thing from any of the great empires that had hitherto prevailed in the civilised world. . . . [It] incorporated nearly all the Greek people in the world, and its population was less strongly Hamitic and Semitic than that of any preceding empire . . . It was so far a new pattern in history . . . The Roman Empire was a growth, an unplanned novel growth; the Roman people found themselves engaged almost unawares in a vast administrative experiment.” Yet, the fourth beast was to have further growth.


20 “I kept on considering the horns,” said Daniel, “and, look! another horn, a small one, came up in among them, and there were three of the first horns that were plucked up from before it.” (Daniel 7:8) Concerning this outgrowth, the angel told Daniel: “Another one will rise up after them [the ten kings], and he himself will be different from the first ones, and three kings he will humiliate.” (Daniel 7:24) Who is this king, when did he rise, and what three kings did he humiliate?

21 Consider the following developments. In 55 B.C.E., Roman General Julius Caesar invaded Britannia but failed to establish a permanent settlement. In 43 C.E., Emperor Claudius began a more permanent conquest of southern Britain. Then, in 122 C.E., Emperor Hadrian began to build a wall from the Tyne River to the Solway Firth, marking the northern limit of the Roman Empire. Early in the fifth century, the Roman legions left the island. “In the sixteenth century,” explained one historian, “England had been a second-rate power. Its wealth was slight compared with that of the Netherlands. Its population was much less than that of France. Its armed forces (including its navy) were inferior to Spain’s.” Britain evidently was an insignificant kingdom then, making up the symbolic small horn of the fourth beast. But that was to change.

22 In 1588, Philip II of Spain launched the Spanish Armada against Britain. This fleet of 130 ships, carrying more than 24,000 men, sailed up the English Channel, only to suffer defeat by the British navy and to fall victim to contrary winds and fierce Atlantic storms. This event “marked the decisive passing of naval superiority from Spain to England,” said one historian. In the 17th century, the Dutch developed the world’s largest merchant marine. With growing overseas colonies, however, Britain prevailed over that kingdom. During the 18th century, the British and the French fought each other in North America and India, leading to the Treaty of Paris in 1763. This treaty, said author William B. Willcox, “recognized Britain’s new position as the predominant European power in the world beyond Europe.” Britain’s supremacy was confirmed by the crushing victory over Napoléon of France in 1815 C.E. The “three kings” that Britain thus ‘humiliated’ were Spain, the Netherlands, and France. (Daniel 7:24) As a result, Britain emerged as the world’s greatest colonial and commercial power. Yes, the “small” horn grew to become a world power!

23 The angel told Daniel that the fourth beast, or fourth kingdom, would “devour all the earth.” (Daniel 7:23) That proved true of the Roman province once known as Britannia. It eventually became the British Empire and ‘devoured all the earth.’ At one time, this empire embraced one fourth of the earth’s land surface and a fourth of its population.

24 As the Roman Empire differed from previous world powers, the king depicted by the “small” horn would also “be different from the first ones.” (Daniel 7:24) Concerning the British Empire, historian H. G. Wells noted: “Nothing of the sort has ever existed before. First and central to the whole system was the ‘crowned republic’ of the United British Kingdoms . . . No single office and no single brain had ever comprehended the British Empire as a whole. It was a mixture of growths and accumulations entirely different from anything that has ever been called an empire before.”

25 There was more to the “small” horn than the British Empire. In 1783, Britain recognized the independence of its 13 American colonies. The United States of America eventually became Britain’s ally, emerging from World War II as the earth’s dominant nation. It still has strong ties with Britain. The resulting Anglo-American dual world power constitutes the ‘horn having eyes.’ Indeed, this world power is observant, astute! It ‘speaks grandiose things,’ dictating policy for much of the world and acting as its mouthpiece, or “false prophet.”Daniel 7:8, 11, 20; Revelation 16:13; 19:20.


26 Daniel continued to describe his vision, saying: “I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them.” (Daniel 7:21) Regarding this “horn,” or king, God’s angel foretold: “He will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time.” (Daniel 7:25) How and when was this part of the prophecy fulfilled?

27 “The holy ones” persecuted by the “small” horn—the Anglo-American World Power—are Jesus’ spirit-anointed followers on earth. (Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 2:9) For years before World War I, the remnant of these anointed ones publicly warned that 1914 would see the conclusion of “the appointed times of the nations.” (Luke 21:24) When war broke out in that year, it was evident that the “small” horn had ignored this warning, for it persisted in harassing the anointed “holy ones.” The Anglo-American World Power even opposed their efforts to carry out Jehovah’s requirement (or, “law”) that the good news of the Kingdom be preached worldwide by his witnesses. (Matthew 24:14) Thus the “small” horn attempted “to change times and law.”

28 Jehovah’s angel referred to a prophetic period of “a time, and times and half a time.” How long is that? Bible expositors generally agree that this expression denotes three and a half times—the sum of one time, two times, and half a time. Since Nebuchadnezzar’s “seven times” of madness amounted to seven years, the three and a half times are three and a half years. (Daniel 4:16, 25) An American Translation reads: “They shall be handed over to him for a year, two years, and half a year.” James Moffatt’s version says: “For three years and half a year.” The same period is mentioned at Revelation 11:2-7, which states that God’s witnesses would preach dressed in sackcloth for 42 months, or 1,260 days, and then be killed. When did this time period begin and end?

29 For the anointed Christians, World War I meant a time of testing. By the end of 1914, they were expecting persecution. In fact, the very yeartext chosen for 1915 was Jesus’ question to his disciples, “Are ye able to drink of my cup?” It was based on Matthew 20:22, King James Version. Hence, beginning in December 1914, that small band of witnesses preached “in sackcloth.”

30 As war fever took hold, the anointed Christians encountered mounting opposition. Some of them were imprisoned. Individuals, such as Frank Platt in England and Robert Clegg in Canada, were tortured by sadistic authorities. On February 12, 1918, the British Dominion of Canada banned the recently published seventh volume of Studies in the Scriptures, entitled The Finished Mystery, as well as the tracts entitled The Bible Students Monthly. The following month, the U.S. Department of Justice pronounced the distribution of the seventh volume illegal. The result? Why, homes were searched, literature was confiscated, and Jehovah’s worshipers were arrested!

31 Harassment of God’s anointed ones climaxed on June 21, 1918, when the president, J. F. Rutherford, and prominent members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were sentenced on false charges to long prison terms. Intending “to change times and law,” the “small” horn had effectively killed the organized preaching work. (Revelation 11:7) So the foretold period of “a time, and times and half a time” ended in June 1918.

32 But “the holy ones” were not wiped out by the harassment from the “small” horn. As prophesied in the book of Revelation, after a short period of inactivity, the anointed Christians became alive and active again. (Revelation 11:11-13) On March 26, 1919, the president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and his associates were released from prison, and they were later exonerated of the false charges against them. Immediately thereafter, the anointed remnant began to reorganize for further activity. What, though, would be in store for the “small” horn?


33 After introducing the four beasts, Daniel shifts his eyes from the fourth beast to a scene in heaven. He beholds the Ancient of Days sit down on his resplendent throne as Judge. The Ancient of Days is none other than Jehovah God. (Psalm 90:2) As the heavenly Court takes its seat, Daniel sees ‘books being opened.’ (Daniel 7:9, 10) Since Jehovah’s existence extends into the infinite past, he knows all human history as if it were written in a book. He has observed all four symbolic beasts and can pass judgment upon them according to firsthand knowledge.

34 Daniel continues: “I kept on beholding at that time because of the sound of the grandiose words that the horn was speaking; I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire. But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and there was a lengthening in life given to them for a time and a season.” (Daniel 7:11, 12) The angel tells Daniel: “The Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him totally.”—Daniel 7:26.

35 By decree of the Great Judge, Jehovah God, the horn that blasphemed God and harassed his “holy ones” will have the same experience as the Roman Empire, which persecuted the early Christians. Its rulership will not continue. Neither will that of inferior hornlike “kings” that came out of the Roman Empire. What, though, about the rulerships derived from the previous beastly powers? As foretold, their lives were lengthened “for a time and a season.” Their territories have continued to have inhabitants to our day. Iraq, for example, occupies the territory of ancient Babylon. Persia (Iran) and Greece still exist. Remnants of these world powers are part of the United Nations. These kingdoms also will perish with the annihilation of the last world power. All human governments will be obliterated at “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Revelation 16:14, 16) But, then, who will rule the world?


36 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there!” exclaimed Daniel. “With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One.” (Daniel 7:13) When on earth, Jesus Christ called himself “the Son of man,” indicating his kinship to mankind. (Matthew 16:13; 25:31) To the Sanhedrin, or Jewish high court, Jesus said: “You will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64) So in Daniel’s vision, the one coming, invisible to human eyes, and gaining access to Jehovah God was the resurrected, glorified Jesus Christ. When did this occur?

37 With Jesus Christ, God has made a covenant for a Kingdom, just as he had made one with King David. (2 Samuel 7:11-16; Luke 22:28-30) When “the appointed times of the nations” ended in 1914 C.E., Jesus Christ, as David’s royal heir, could rightfully receive Kingdom rule. Daniel’s prophetic record reads: “To him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.” (Daniel 7:14) Thus the Messianic Kingdom was established in heaven in 1914. However, the rulership is given to others also.

38 “The holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom,” said the angel. (Daniel 7:18, 22, 27) Jesus Christ is the chief holy one. (Acts 3:14; 4:27, 30) The other “holy ones” having a share in the rulership are the 144,000 faithful spirit-anointed Christians, who are Kingdom heirs with Christ. (Romans 1:7; 8:17; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; 1 Peter 2:9) They are resurrected from death as immortal spirits to reign with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. (Revelation 2:10; 14:1; 20:6) Hence, Christ Jesus and the resurrected anointed Christians will rule the world of mankind.

39 Concerning the rulership of the Son of man and the other resurrected “holy ones,” God’s angel said: “The kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.” (Daniel 7:27) What blessings obedient mankind will experience under that Kingdom!


*** w12 6/15 pp. 15-16 pars. 6-11 Jehovah Reveals What “Must Shortly Take Place” ***



7 What is the relationship between the seventh head of the wild beast and the immense image? Britain—and by extension, the United States—grew out of the Roman Empire. What, though, about the feet of the image? They are described as an amalgam of iron and clay. (Read Daniel 2:41-43.) This description coincides with the time when the seventh head—the Anglo-American World Power—would come to prominence. Just as an iron structure mixed with clay is weaker than solid iron, so too the Anglo-American World Power is weaker than the power from which it emerged. How?

8 At times, the seventh head of the beast has displayed ironlike characteristics. For example, it proved its power by winning World War I. During World War II, the ironlike power of the seventh head was also evident. After that war, the seventh head at times still displayed ironlike characteristics. However, from early on, that iron has been mixed with clay.

9 Jehovah’s servants have long sought to understand the symbolic meaning of the feet of the image. Daniel 2:41 describes the mixture of iron and clay as one “kingdom,” not many. The clay, therefore, represents elements within the sphere of influence of the Anglo-American World Power, elements that make it weaker than the solid iron of the Roman Empire. The clay is referred to as “the offspring of mankind,” or the common people. (Dan. 2:43) In the Anglo-American World Power, people have risen up to claim their rights through civil rights campaigns, labor unions, and independence movements. The common people undermine the ability of the Anglo-American World Power to act with ironlike strength. Also, opposing ideologies and close election results that do not end up in a clear majority have weakened the power base of even popular leaders, so that they have no clear mandate to implement their policies. Daniel foretold: “The kingdom will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile.”—Dan. 2:42; 2 Tim. 3:1-3.

10 In the 21st century, Britain and the United States have continued their special partnership, often acting together in world affairs. The prophecies about the immense image and the wild beast confirm that the Anglo-American World Power will not be replaced by some future world power. This last world power may be weaker than that represented by the legs of iron, but it will not disintegrate on its own.

11 Does the number of toes of the image have special meaning? Consider: In other visions, Daniel mentions specific numbers—for example, the number of horns on the heads of various beasts. Those numbers are significant. However, when describing the image, Daniel does not mention the number of toes. Therefore, the number seems no more significant than the fact that the image had multiple arms, hands, fingers, legs, and feet. Daniel does specifically mention that the toes would be made of iron and clay. From his description, we can conclude that the Anglo-American World Power is the one that will be dominating when the “stone” representing God’s Kingdom hits the feet of the image.—Dan. 2:45.



Who rules the world right now?


The Rulers of the World Identified

There is no need to guess at the matter, for the Bible clearly shows that an intelligent, unseen person has been controlling both men and nations. It says: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” And the Bible identifies him, saying: “The one called Devil and Satan . . . is misleading the entire inhabited earth.”—1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9.

On an occasion when Jesus was “tempted by the Devil,” Jesus did not question Satan’s role as the ruler of this world. The Bible explains what happened: “The Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: ‘All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.’ Then Jesus said to him: ‘Go away, Satan!’”—Matthew 4:1, 8-10.

Think about this. Satan tempted Jesus by offering him “all the kingdoms of the world.” Yet, would Satan’s offer have been a real temptation if Satan was not actually the ruler of these kingdoms? No, it would not. And note, Jesus did not deny that all these worldly governments were Satan’s, which he would have done if Satan did not have power over them. So, then, Satan the Devil really is the unseen ruler of the world! The Bible, in fact, calls him “the god of this system of things.” (2 Corinthians 4:4) Yet, how did such a wicked person ever come into this powerful position?

The one who became Satan had been an angel created by God, but he became envious of God’s position. He challenged God’s rightful rulership. To this end he used a serpent as a mouthpiece to deceive the first woman, Eve, and was thus able to get her and her husband, Adam, to do his bidding rather than obey God. (Genesis 3:1-6; 2 Corinthians 11:3) He also claimed he could turn all of Adam and Eve’s yet unborn offspring away from God. So God allowed time for Satan to try to prove his claim, but Satan has not succeeded.—Job 1:6-12; 2:1-10.

Significantly, Satan is not alone in his rulership of the world. He was successful in persuading some of the other angels to join him in rebellion against God. These became demons, his spirit accomplices. The Bible speaks of them when it urges Christians: “Stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but . . . against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”—Ephesians 6:11, 12.


Why we must pray for the Kingdom to come


*** w15 6/15 pp. 22-24 Live in Harmony With the Model Prayer—Part I ***


11 Before Jesus ascended to heaven, his apostles asked: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” Jesus’ answer showed that it was not the time for them to know when God’s Kingdom would start ruling. He told his disciples to focus on the important witnessing work that they needed to do. (Read Acts 1:6-8.) Nevertheless, Jesus taught his followers to look forward to the coming of God’s Kingdom. So Christians since the days of the apostles have been praying for it to come.

12 When the time approached for God’s Kingdom in the hands of Jesus to start ruling from heaven, Jehovah helped his people to understand the timing of events. In 1876, an article written by Charles Taze Russell was published in the magazine Bible Examiner. That article, “Gentile Times: When Do They End?,” pointed to 1914 as a significant year. The article linked the “seven times” of Daniel’s prophecy with “the appointed times of the nations” spoken of by Jesus.—Dan. 4:16; Luke 21:24.

13 In 1914, war broke out between nations of Europe—a war that spread and engulfed the whole world. By the time it ended in 1918, terrible food shortages had been experienced and there was a flu epidemic in which more people died than were killed in the war. Thus “the sign” that Jesus had given to identify his invisible presence as earth’s new King started to be fulfilled. (Matt. 24:3-8; Luke 21:10, 11) Ample evidence points to the year 1914 as the time when “a crown was given” to the Lord Jesus Christ. He “went out conquering and to complete his conquest.” (Rev. 6:2) He cleansed the heavens in a war against Satan and his demons, who were hurled down to the vicinity of the earth. Ever since, mankind has experienced the truthfulness of these inspired words: “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”—Rev. 12:7-12.

14 The prophecy recorded at Revelation 12:7-12 explains why the birth of God’s Kingdom basically coincided with the beginning of the disastrous events that continue to plague mankind. Jesus, the King of God’s Kingdom, began to rule amid his enemies. Until his conquest is complete and he has brought an end to wickedness on earth, we will continue to pray for God’s Kingdom to come. At the same time, we must live in harmony with such prayers by sharing in the fulfillment of a most amazing feature of “the sign.” Jesus foretold: “This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”—Matt. 24:14.


15 About 6,000 years ago, God’s will was being done perfectly on earth. That is why Jehovah could look upon the fine start he had given to mankind and say: “It was very good.” (Gen. 1:31) Then Satan rebelled, and ever since, comparatively few humans have done God’s will on earth. But today we are privileged to be alive at a time when about eight million Witnesses not only are praying for God’s will to take place on earth but also are striving to live in harmony with that prayer. They do so by their way of life and by having a zealous share in the disciple-making work.

16 For example, a sister who was baptized in 1948 and who served as a missionary in Africa says: “In line with this part of the model prayer, I often pray that all sheeplike people will be contacted and helped to come to know Jehovah before it is too late. Also, when I am about to witness to someone, I ask for wisdom to reach the person’s heart. And regarding sheeplike ones who have already been found, I pray that Jehovah will bless our efforts to care for them.” Little wonder that this 80-year-old sister has success in her ministry and, along with aid from others, has helped many to become Jehovah’s Witnesses. No doubt you can think of other good examples of individuals who pour themselves out in doing God’s will despite the limitations of old age.—Read Philippians 2:17.

17 Until the enemies of God’s Kingdom are removed from the earth, we will continue to pray for God’s will to be done. Then we will see God’s will taking place in an even more complete way as billions are resurrected on a paradise earth. “Do not be amazed at this,” Jesus said, “for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [my] voice and come out.” (John 5:28, 29) What a wonderful time to be alive to welcome back our dead loved ones! God “will wipe out every tear from [our] eyes.” (Rev. 21:4) Most resurrected ones will be “the unrighteous,” who lived and died without learning the truth about Jehovah God and his Son. It will be a privilege to impart knowledge of God’s will and purpose to resurrected ones, thereby helping them to qualify for “everlasting life.”—Acts 24:15; John 17:3.

18 Universal peace and harmony depend on the sanctification of Jehovah’s name by means of God’s Kingdom. Thus, the complete answer to the first three requests of the model prayer will fulfill mankind’s greatest needs. Meanwhile, we have other vital needs that are mentioned in the remaining four requests in Jesus’ model prayer. They will be discussed in the following article.


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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This could get really fun, and cover a lot of different topics, and you know that I probably couldn't stop myself from joining in.  But another "thread" would be better. I'm really not anxious to share too many ideas on Daniel and Revelation, even though I think there are several places where simpler and clearer understandings are possible. But I'm not trying to give the impression that I "know" anything more than you or anyone else on all these matters. And I think I've probably caused enough confusion or commotion in the way I brought up 1914 this time.

Let us know when you start the new thread please! I don't have much time lately to contribute, but I am enjoying reading yours and others comments :)

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On 6/28/2017 at 2:58 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

Then, the dispensation of time prophecy is erred by marking Jesus king in 33CE. That would nullify all the efforts Jesus made NOT to be made king by the mass crowd as suggested in John 6:15 and would misalign, what Jesus meant in John 18:36. Once again a none sustainable argument, until the fulfillment in 1914.

We already know from other scriptures that Jesus became king in 33 C.E. John 6:15 does not contradict the rest of the Bible at all.  As you know, John 6:15 says the following, along with a bit of context:

(John 6:12-17) 12 But when they had eaten their fill, he said to his disciples: “Gather together the fragments left over, so that nothing is wasted.” 13 So they gathered them together and filled 12 baskets with fragments left over by those who had eaten from the five barley loaves. 14 When the people saw the sign he performed, they began to say: “This really is the Prophet who was to come into the world.” 15 Then Jesus, knowing that they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again to the mountain all alone. 16 When evening fell, his disciples went down to the sea, 17 and boarding a boat, they set out across the sea for Ca·perʹna·um. By now it had grown dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them.

This particular crowd may have wanted to make him king based on the fact that he could provide earthly things, such as food, and as you already pointed out, we know that Jesus would later say, in John 18:

(John 18:36, 37) . . .“My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.” 37 So Pilate said to him: “Well, then, are you a king?” Jesus answered: “You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, . . .

Also, notice that Jesus did not condemn a different crowd who would also declare him king, and Jesus even helped set up the scenario:

(Matthew 21:1-9) 21 When they got close to Jerusalem and arrived at Bethʹpha·ge on the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them: “Go into the village that is within sight, and you will at once find a donkey tied and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If someone says anything to you, you must say, ‘The Lord needs them.’ At that he will immediately send them.” 4 This actually took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet, who said: 5 “Tell the daughter of Zion: ‘Look! Your king is coming to you, mild-tempered and mounted on a donkey, yes, on a colt, the offspring of a beast of burden.’” 6 So the disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them. 7 They brought the donkey and its colt, and they put their outer garments on them, and he sat on them. 8 Most of the crowd spread their outer garments on the road, while others were cutting down branches from the trees and spreading them on the road. 9 Moreover, the crowds going ahead of him and those following him kept shouting: “Save, we pray, the Son of David! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name! Save him, we pray, in the heights above!”

This is a low-cost version of what the people of that time period termed a "PAROUSIA." As the New World Translation Appendix stated:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

This type of royal visitation (parousia) often took the form of a parade with joyous crowds and fanfare. Of course, to a disobedient province, such a visitation (parousia) could also include a display of judgment against enemies of the state.

On 6/28/2017 at 2:58 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

Some of Russell’s followers leaned toward Adventism, while Russell himself didn’t. An early problem of a nondenominational church that voted their Elders in, and was independent of Russell’s primary church the people's pulpit. The same can be said about publications like the Bible Examiner.

This is mostly true. Russell used the name Watch Tower for the primary corporation for nearly 40 years, incorporated officially for more than 30 of those years. The People's Pulpit, of course, was just an alternative name for the purpose of owning property in New York that the Pennsylvania corporation hadn't been set up for. (It could have been expanded for that purpose, but Russell had personal reasons to move all money out of Pennsylvania during his divorce.) But Russell only used that alternative name for 7 years before he died. Later it was changed from People's Pulpit [of New York] to "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society [of New York]"

On 6/28/2017 at 2:58 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

While Storrs and others continued a path inconsistent with that of Russell, Russell relied only on what Scripture showed. So, once again, 1914 is scripturally sound through Russell’s reasoning,

Russell continued to rely on a chronological system that promoted each of the following dates as specially marked in prophecy or predicted in prophecy. Almost all of them were still distinctly considered Biblically significant, and still being published "in print" in the publications until at least a decade after Russell died.

  • 1776
  • 1780
  • 1798
  • 1799
  • 1800
  • 1829
  • 1833
  • 1840
  • 1844
  • 1846
  • c.1859
  • 1872
  • 1873
  • 1874
  • 1875
  • 1876
  • 1878
  • 1879
  • 1881
  • 1910
  • c.1911
  • 1912
  • 1914
  • 1915
  • 1918 (date predicted in 1917, based on Russell's writings, 8.5 months after his death)
  • 1920 (date predicted in 1917, based on Russell's writings, 8.5 months after his death)

So, tell me again, how Russell relied only on what the Scripture showed that made the 1914 date "scripturally sound."

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35 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

We already know from other scriptures that Jesus became king in 33 C.E.

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown? And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

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5 minutes ago, Anna said:

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown? And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

this is NOT what JW-insider wrote .... 



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On 6/28/2017 at 0:22 PM, JW Insider said:

I feel the announcement in Revelation 12:10 did not take place in 1914


On 6/28/2017 at 0:22 PM, JW Insider said:

Clearly, at the latest, it was the year when Jesus died and was resurrected.

I have a couple of questions related to this if you don't mind.

1. Are you saying that the war between Michael and Satan and the casting out of Satan and his angels preceded the event referred to at Rev.12:10,  and by this reckoning took place earlier than "the year when Jesus died and was resurrected"?

2. What do you think  "the short period of time" mentioned at Rev 12:12 refers to?

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*** w14 1/15 p. 11 par. 17 Worship Jehovah, the King of Eternity ***
17 When would Jesus begin to rule as King of God’s Kingdom? He could not do so immediately. The very next afternoon, Jesus was executed and his followers scattered. (John 16:32) However, as in times past, Jehovah remained in control. On the third day, he resurrected his Son, and on the day of Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus established a spiritual kingdom over the Christian congregation of his anointed brothers. (Col. 1:13) Still, Jesus would have to wait to take up full kingly power over the earth as the promised “offspring.” Jehovah told his Son: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”—Ps. 110:1.
*** w14 4/1 p. 16 Bible Questions Answered ***
In the year 33 C.E., Jesus died, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven. Much later, Jesus was given authority to rule as King. (Daniel 7:13, 14) In the future, Jesus will take action as King to establish world peace and eliminate poverty.—

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*** w09 1/15 p. 31 par. 2 Highlights From the Book of Revelation—I ***
Upon his baptism in 29 C.E., Jesus became King-Designate in the line of David. However, Jesus did not receive the key of David until 33 C.E. when he was exalted to the right hand of God in heaven. There he inherited all the rights of the Davidic Kingdom. Since then, Jesus has been using the key to 

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*** w06 5/1 p. 27 par. 1 Loyally Serving Christ the King ***
At Pentecost 33 C.E., after Christ’s death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven, God “made him head over all things to the congregation.” (Ephesians 1:20-22; Acts 2:32-36) Christ thus began to rule but in a limited sense. His initial subjects were spirit-anointed Christians, who made up spiritual Israel, “the Israel of God.”—
*** w06 5/1 p. 27 par. 2 Loyally Serving Christ the King ***
 Almost 30 years after that Pentecost in 33 C.E., the apostle Paul confirmed that Christ had not yet taken full Kingdom power, but he was “at the right hand of God, from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.” (Hebrews 10:12, 13) Then, near the end of the first century C.E., the aged apostle John foresaw in a vision the Universal Sovereign, Jehovah, installing Christ Jesus as King of the newborn heavenly Kingdom. (Revelation 11:15; 12:1-5) From our vantage point in history, we can review the overwhelming evidence confirming that Christ began to rule as Messianic King in heaven in 1914.

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5 minutes ago, Anna said:

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown?

That's how I understand it too. Jesus had not yet been crowned because he had not suffered death and been seated at the right hand of God.

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

(Hebrews 2:9) . . .But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .

So it would be some time after suffering death, and his resurrection. When he sits at God's right hand he is at the right hand of the "throne of Majesty." He is therefore "ruling as king" with Jehovah.

(Hebrews 8:1) . . .he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

We also know this because Paul changes the word "sit at my right hand" to "rule as king." So Paul thinks of them as equivalent.

(1 Corinthians 15:25-27) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.”. . .

Also, in Hebrews it is a given that Jesus, from Judah, would be a king, after the manner of Melchizedek:

(Hebrews 7:1, 2) 7 For this Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Saʹlem, that is, “King of Peace.”

So now that Jesus is part of the enthronement setup at God's right hand, he is also, therefore, ruling as king.

Just as Paul said in 1 Corinthians, above, that Jesus would go on conquering in the midst of his enemies up until the last enemy is conquered, we also have an image in Revelation like this:

(Revelation 6:1, 2) 6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder: “Come!” 2 And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest.

This mention of his crown in Revelation 6 is given a lead-up in the entire 5th chapter, which is a bit long to quote completely, but notice the highlighted verses:

5 And I saw in the right hand of the One seated on the throne a scroll written on both sides, sealed tight with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” . . .  5 But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne . . . a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, . . . . . . . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne . . . 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power . . . .”
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

If the elders fell down and worshipped the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb standing in the midst of the throne, then Jesus, at this point must have a position of kingship granted by Jehovah. We can find out what that time was by going back to Paul.

(Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet . . .

(Philippians 2:8-11) . . .to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Note that Philippians, here, reads like a commentary of Revelation 5. It explains why (his sacrificial death) even those in heaven now openly "bend the knee" to Jesus to the glory of God.



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*** kr chap. 2 p. 22 par. 29 The Kingdom Is Born in Heaven ***
29 Long before 1914, the Bible Students said that a time of trouble would begin in that marked year. But even they could not have imagined how accurate that prediction would turn out to be. As John’s vision revealed, Satan would then begin to have an even greater impact on human society: “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” (Rev. 12:12) In 1914, the first world war broke out and the sign of Christ’s presence in kingly power began to see global fulfillment. The “last days” of this system of things had begun.—

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      The organization claims that the 1914 teaching is necessary for salvation and even goes as far as to claim that the 1914 teaching is the good news spoken of in the Bible.
      *** w67 12/15 pp. 753-754 pars. 3-4 What Now Distinguishes the Good News to Be Preached ***
      "What a joy-inspiring addition or enlargement to the good news now to be preached! Now has come the victorious kingdom of our God together with the authority of his Christ, his Messiah! As for Satan the Devil and his demons, they have only a short period of time until they are bound and imprisoned in the abyss after the “war of the great day of God the Almighty” at Armageddon. All this additional wonderful information has been true since the end of the “appointed times of the nations” in 1914, and particularly since World War I closed in the year 1918. Not before the “appointed times of the nations” ended in the fall of 1914 could the good news be preached of the newborn, established heavenly kingdom of God and of his Messiah. This, then, must be the good news that Jesus Christ in his prophecy said had to be preached first in all the nations. (Mark 13:10) This generation of human society that has seen and experienced the world events since the Gentile Times closed in 1914—this is the “generation” that will not pass away until all the things foretold have happened, including the preaching of the good news first in all nations.
      4 Jesus’ prophecy in Mark 13:10, “Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first,” has not been undergoing fulfillment during the past nineteen centuries. It is only since the second decade of our twentieth century that this prophecy has been undergoing fulfillment. This began to be realized by the International Bible Students Association and the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society since the end of the second decade of our century. In the magazine issue of July 1, 1920, of The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence the article was published entitled “Gospel of the Kingdom” and based on the theme text, “‘And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.’—Matthew 24:14.”
       It is for this reason that the organization is chained to the 1914 teaching. As the scripture I quoted above demonstrates the Bible says that one who teaches a good news that is false is cursed. If the organization admits that the 1914 and 1919 teachings are false they will have to admit that not only were they not selected as gods channel but that they have been teaching a false good news for the majority of their existence. It is for that reason that they disfellowship and shun people who cannot conscientiously remain in the faith. It's easier to just eliminate the opposition then to actually address the real issues with your theology. 
      *** w86 4/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
      Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?
      "Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
      That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4."
      This is supposedly a list of the fundamental doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses that all are required to believe. You will in most cases be disfellowshiped for not believing in one or more of them. Unfortunately the truth is most of them are false.
    • By Noble Berean
      "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).
      I understand that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ presence began back in 1914. I also understand that JWs believe the clergy of Christendom represent the Man of Lawlessness. However, if that is the case, why have the clergy thrived since 1914? Shouldn't they be brought to "...nothing by the manifestation of his presence"?
    • By JW Insider
      A recent topic about whether the Watchtower view of 607 BCE is SCRIPTURALLY supported is linked below. This new topic should provide a better place to discuss the SECULAR evidence. I also think it would be useful to discuss the methodology that the Watch Tower Society has historically used to treat this evidence.
      I would hope that we can do this without so much side discussions of unrelated topics. To avoid another topic that goes on for 30+ pages where only half of them were on-topic, I would suggest that if we get enough off-topic posts, we merely move them to another more appropriate topic.
      The link to the most recent topic on a similar subject is here:

    • By JW Insider
      Why another topic about 1914 and 607?
      Because we could use a topic where we can all agree a little more easily. Seriously. In this topic, we don't need to worry about whether 607 is correct, or 1914 is correct. No one needs to say why it does or doesn't make sense to them. Let's just see if we can review the possible and probable sources that were influential, and ultimately resulted in 607 and 1914 being accepted as a Bible-based fulfillment of prophecy.
      No one needs to jump from another thread about 607 and Biblical evidence over to this one. In fact, I just read a couple of books last night for the first time, and I had some questions that I couldn't find an answer to, and hoped that someone from that other thread, or anyone really, might have run across the resources that might have answered the questions. I'm reading one more book first, and don't think I'll finish it tonight, so consider this topic to be kind of a placeholder for a couple days.
      So this is the purpose of the three current threads:
      https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/5510-607-bce-is-it-biblically-supported/ a place to discuss mostly the Scriptural evidence for or against the 607 portion of the 1914 doctrine. https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/51655-607-bce-is-there-any-secular-support-for-the-watch-towers-view/ a place to discuss mostly the Secular evidence for or against the 607 portion of the 1914 doctrine. And this current one: a place to discuss the sources that were influential in the WTS accepting the 607 date as part of the 1914 doctrine. One place to start is with a couple sentences in the "Proclaimers" book (next post). I personally intend to avoid a certain book by COJ for this topic, to avoid unnecessary controversy, although anyone should feel free to use any resources from anywhere they wish, as long as it appears to be a statement of fact. Again, this is not about questioning the correctness of the doctrine.
    • By The Librarian
      Master Chronological List > 1914
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  pointed to 1914 as the end of the "Gentile Times" or "The Appointed Times of the Nations."

      Subsequent President of the  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  established 1914 as the date of "Christ's Invisible Return" and crowning as King of  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  which had been previously believed to be 1878. Hence, Jehovah's heavenly Kingdom is established.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  teach that Satan and his demons were cast down to earth from heaven after October 1, 1914 at which point the end times began.

      From 1914 C.E. to the early part of 1918 C.E. or 1,260 days Jehovah's people preached a "sackcloth" message concerning Christendom and the world, in fulfillment of Revelation 11:3, 4. See re pgs. 164-7 pars. 10-18, also see yw pgs. 264-307, also bf pg. 592.

      [KING OF THE NORTH is now Germany, the KING OF THE SOUTH is the alliance between Great Britian and the United States of America, see Daniel 11:27-29], Archduke Francis Ferdinand and his wife, Countess Sophie Chotek, duchess of Hohenberg were assassinated on June 28th in Sarajevo, Bosnia, (now in Bosnia and Herzegovina), by a Serb nationalist. This action precipitated World War I. 
      On October 2, 1914, Jesus took the throne. Shortly thereafter, a war in heaven broke out wherein Satan and his demons were cast from the heavens. Satan then became so enraged that he began to wreak havoc upon the earth. One of the first things he did was to start the Great War (WWI). So WWI must have started a few days after October 2, 1914.
      “World War I set the violent twentieth century in motion. It was the first use of chemical weapons; the first mass bombardment of civilians from the sky; the century’s first genocide.” So begins the 1996 PBS series The Great War and the Shaping of the Twentieth Century.

      The war’s horrendous prosecution and unsatisfactory end were made even worse by the Versailles Peace Conference, a conclave which created the false peace that only allowed the combatants to rearm and proceed to a second conflict which was even more destructive than the first one. World War II merely took up the Great War’s unfinished business. Indeed many historians call both conflicts Europe’s “Second Thirty Years’ War.”

      The First World War led to the birth of the first communist dictatorship. The world flirted with nuclear destruction as that dictatorship engaged in a murderous rivalry with its erstwhile allies. When the USSR finally imploded, some of the splinter states which emerged from its ruins fell to either fighting among themselves or suffering internecine bloodletting. And the problems elsewhere in southwest Asia as well as the Middle East can be traced to hatreds fostered by European colonialism which the Great War only intensified.

      The world we have today had its birth pangs in World War I. It was Austria-Hungary’s invasion of Serbia on 28 July 1914 that caused a myriad of dominoes to fall—and they are continuing to tumble even now.

      The war shattered an entire world order. In 1914, sixty percent of the world's population lived under the rule of kingdoms or empires. Today less than ten percent do so. The only important royal dynasty to survive the war was the House of Windsor and that was not without challenge. The fragmentation of these empires led to the rise of independent states which continues down to this day as the doctrine of "self-determination", promulgated by Wilson at Versailles, continues to govern many movements in our time.

      But what makes the Great War different from its predecessors is that it was the first fought in all four quarters of the globe and by blocs of nations as opposed to just a few. Its carnage also was unmatched in previous world history. Nobody knows how many actually died although estamates range from fourteen to twenty million. Among its aftershocks were the Spanish Flu, the pandemic that killed more people than the war itself, and widespread famine. So to say that the Great War was not much different from earlier ones entirely misses the point,
        Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. by Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .  
      July 28, 1914. Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia. August 1, 1914. Germany Declares War on Russia. August 3, 1914. Germany declares war on France. August 4, 1914. Britain declares war on Germany. August 6, 1914. Austria declares war on Russia. April 6, 1917 - The United States declares war on Germany.
      Depiction from the 
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      Older depiction from the 1982 book "
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      Related Links and Questions
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      1914-2014 - One Hundred Years of Kingdom Rule!

      Where did you find the theme text for 1914?

      Jesus said that "This generation will not pass away until all these things occur." Did he mean the generation that saw saw World War 1 in 1914?

      What shows that Christ became King in 1914?

      When Jesus began ruling as King in 1914, was that the start of the Millennial reign of the Messianic Kingdom?

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      Watchtower Publications from 1914
      YearText: “Be strong and courageous.” Joshua 1:9
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      Berean Studies on The New Creation - C.T. Russell 
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      Return to the 
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      Previous Watchtower Publications quotations concerning 1914
      “Some persons living A.D. 1914 when the series of foretold events began will also be living when the series ends with Armageddon.” - The Watchtower, September 1, 1952, p. 543

      THE TRAIN ILLUSTRATION - Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 5

      “The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the ‘last days’ have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Jesus was obviously speaking about those who were old enough to witness with understanding what took place when the ‘last days’ began. Jesus was saying that some of those persons who were alive at the appearance of the ‘sign of the last days’ would still be alive when God brought this system to its end.” - Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 13

      “But there are people still living who were alive in 1914 and saw what was happening then and who were old enough that they still remember those events. This generation is getting up in years now. A great number of them have already passed away in death. Yet Jesus very pointedly said: ‘This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.’ Some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. This means that only a short time is left before the end comes!” -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

      “However, there are people still living who were alive in 1914 and saw what was happening then and who were old enough that they still remember those events. This generation is getting up in years now. A great number of them have already passed away in death. Yet Jesus very pointedly said: ‘This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.’ Some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. This means that only a short time is left before the end comes!” - The Watchtower, February 15, 1969, p. 101

      “Men of this world offer you nothing stable, nothing sure. Their promises and predictions of better things have failed time and again. Why let yourself be carried along with them in a steadily downward course to ultimate disaster due to rejecting God’s will? God’s prophetic Word has not failed. Time has confirmed its truthfulness, its unerring accuracy. The generation that saw the start of the time of distress that began in 1914 is now dwindling in numbers. Before it passes off the scene the prophesied ‘great tribulation’ will come. You can be among the joyful survivors, experience deliverance from a world system that has proved oppressive, unworkable and death dealing.” - The Watchtower, February 1, 1971, p. 69

      “And the remaining ones of that generation of 1914 are still talking about it. Some of them will be talking about it right down to the time when the ‘great tribulation’ wipes Satan’s wicked system of things off the face of our globe. For Jesus Christ himself assures us: ‘Truly I say to you that this generation [the generation that saw the ‘beginning of pangs of distress’ in 1914] will by no means pass away [completely] until all these things occur. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.’--Matthew 24:3,8,34,35.” - The Watchtower, May 1, 1982, p. 15

      “After drawing attention to the many things that have marked the period from 1914 onward, Jesus said: ‘This generation will by no means pass away until all these things [including the end of this system] occur.’ (Matthew 24:34,14) Which generation did Jesus mean? He meant the generation of people who were living in 1914. Those persons yet remaining of that generation are now very old. However, some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. So of this we can be certain: Shortly now there will be a sudden end to all wickedness and wicked people at Armageddon. Some of the generation living in 1914 will see the end of the system of things and survive it.” -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

      ILLUSTRATION: “1914 The Generation That Will Not Pass Away” - The Watchtower, May 15, 1984, title page

      “If Jesus used ‘generation’ in that sense and we apply it to 1914, then the babies of that generation are now 70 years old or older. And others alive in 1914 are in their 80’s or 90’s, a few even having reached a hundred. There are still many millions of that generation alive. Some of them ‘will by no means pass away until all things occur.’ --Luke 21:32” - The Watchtower, May 15, 1984, p. 5

      “From a purely human viewpoint, it could appear that these developments could hardly take place before the generation of 1914 disappears from the scene. But fulfillment of all the foretold events affecting the generation of 1914 does not depend on comparatively slow human action. Jehovah’s prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: ‘This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.’ (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son’s words in a relatively short time.--Isaiah 46:9,10; 55:10,11.”
      - The Watchtower, May 15, 1984, pp. 6-7

      “Today, a small percentage of mankind can still recall the dramatic events of 1914. Will that elderly generation pass away before God saves the earth from ruin? Not according to Bible prophecy. ‘When you see all these things,’ Jesus promised, ‘know that he is near at the doors. Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.’--Matthew 24:33,34” - The Watchtower, May 1, 1992, p. 3

      “Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” - Awake!, October 22, 1995, p. 4

      “Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah’s people have at times speculated about the time when the ‘great tribulation’ would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we ‘bring a heart of wisdom in,’ not by speculating about how many years or days make up a generation, but by thinking about how we ‘count our days’ in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah. (Psalm 90:12) Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term ‘generation’ as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics.” - The Watchtower, November 1, 1995, p. 17

      “Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy today, ‘this generation’ apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ’s presence but fail to mend their ways...Does our more precise viewpoint on ‘this generation’ mean that Armageddon is further away than we had thought? Not at all! Though we at no time have known the ‘day and hour,’ Jehovah God has always known it, and he does not change.” - The Watchtower, November 1, 1995, pp. 19-20

      “Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.” - Awake!, November 8, 1995, p. 4
      One hundred years on from the Great War

    • By JW Insider
      There are evidently FOUR basic problems in the latest explanation of the "GENERATION" teaching. Of course, this is the teaching based on Jesus' words in Matthew 24:34 where he says that "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." The latest update to the explanation is that Jesus was referring to two groups of anointed persons: the first group who could discern the meaning of the sign they witnessed in 1914, and a second group of anointed persons, whose lives overlapped with that first group.
      #1. It creates a set time limit for Armageddon to occur. #2. It is based on the idea that the date 1914 was predicted in the Bible. #3. It is based on a false definition of the word "generation." #4. It is based on a false premise about a supposed belief in 1914 that didn't even exist in 1914. If we're serious about:
      paying constant attention to ourselves and our teaching, (1 Tim 4:16) handling the word of God aright, having nothing to be ashamed of, (2 Tim 2:15) not paying attention to false stories, (1 Tim 1:4-7) making sure of all things, (1 Thess 5:21) knowing that teachers will receive heavier judgment, etc., (James 3:1) then we would not be very good Christians if any of us taught something that we were not sure about.
      On this forum, participants have already dealt extensively with #1 and #2 above, but there has not yet been a thorough discussion and focus on points #3 and #4.
    • By Patrick J Delaney
      After much prayerful reflection on the Scriptures, I have come to the realisation that the true identity of the “generation” Jesus spoke of at Matthew
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. may soon be revealed. There Jesus said, “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” I think the understanding Jehovah’s Witnesses currently hold on this scripture is incorrect. I believe that Joel chapter 2 will have a second fulfillment in the last days of this complete world system, just as it had a primary fulfillment in the last days of the Jewish system at Pentecost 33 CE. At that time true Christians were sealed with Holy Spirit. I believe that there will be yet another true spirit anointing or sealing in the near future. This is what John was referring to when he spoke of the sealing of the 144,000 in revelation chapter 7. The spiritual Israelite nation must be reborn. (Isaiah 66:8). The great crowd mentioned in the same chapter belong to the same group but are seen standing before the throne after Armageddon coming out of all nations. This sealing will result in a true restoration of pure worship as indicated by Ezekiel’s prophecy of the valley of dry bones. (Ezekiel 37). Jehovah blows his spirit into the bones and they live. The preaching work up to now could be compared to the work of John the Baptist. It is a baptism of repentance for forgiveness of sins. By their actions Jehovah’s Witnesses prove themselves to be true Christians having repented of their sins. Yet they are not spirit anointed. I believe Jehovah is preparing them for a true spirit anointing. Their understanding of scripture will be refined. (See Malachi 3:1) The great worldwide preaching work, in fulfillment of the the “angel flying in mid heaven with everlasting good news to declare” is yet future. (Revelation 14) The fulfillment of the prophecies in Matthew 24, and other related prophecies concerning the last days find their real fulfillment in the future. The last days have not yet begun. Jesus told his followers to “Learn from the fig tree when it’s branch grows tender and puts forth leaves.” (Matthew Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. -34). The fig tree represents Israel. I believe that this illustration could be a referring to the spiritual Israelite nation blossoming forth beginning with an outpouring of Holy Spirit. At least some of the generation of Christians that witness the birth of this new spiritual nation will be still alive on earth to witness the end of the age. This outpouring of Holy Spirit may occur in the very near future.  
    • By gfnslave
      So, I am reading in Matthew about how many generations there we're from the deportation from Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations. The way I do math 607 divided by 14 equals 43.3 years. This is how Scripture measures a generation.The way I see it since 1914 we have had 2 complete generations and are now working on a 3rd. According to Jesus shouldn't the end have come by now?
    • Guest Nicole
    • By JW Insider
      There seems to be be several ways to read Matthew 24 (and parallel accounts in Mark 13 and Luke 21). This has been noted by many Bible commentaries through the years, and even C. T. Russell admits some things about Matthew 24 that might surprise a lot of Witnesses today.
      The primary discussions about Matthew 24 revolve around the question of whether it was ONLY about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., or primarily about the final Great Tribulation on the whole earth, or was it about BOTH judgment events.  (Even if this were primarily about 70 C.E., of course, it would still provide principles to guide Christians in every era and generation, especially about the expectation of the judgment event. -- 2 Tim 3:16; 1 Cor 10:11)
      Over the years, the Watchtower has proposed slightly different ways to read Matthew 24, including splitting it up into two and sometimes three parts, where the first part referred pretty much equally to both a "minor" fulfillment on the first-century generation and a "major" fulfillment on the "final" generation that sees the final judgment event. Then, a middle portion of the chapter was often said to be primarily for the first century without direct application to the "final" generation. Then, later parts of the chapter were said to be meant primarily or sometimes ONLY for the final judgment event on the whole world. None of the differences in these variations was very significant in the overall picture, because in general the Watchtower has seen the greater "major" important fulfillment of almost all of Matthew 24 to be tied to the final generation that sees that "parousia" or "presence."
      If we assume that the primarily fulfillment of Matthew 24 was intended for the final generation, then the secondary discussion is about whether we have correctly understood what Jesus meant with respect to the sign, the parousia, the conclusion, the generation, etc. So, that's the basic discussion being proposed here: that we look carefully at Matthew 24 and see if we have not perhaps tried to fit unlikely definitions of words so that we could make our specific doctrine fit.
      Of course, it is quite proper to look at unlikely definitions of words if the meaning derived becomes the only possible way to understand a passage and the only way in which it properly fits the context and related scriptures. But what if the more likely definitions of each of the words also produces an overall meaning that fits just as well with the context and other scripture? What if accepting the more likely definitions of words in the chapter resulted in an even BETTER fit overall for the rest of the scriptures? What if it were seen that trying to make a doctrine out of the unlikely definitions actually created scriptural contradictions?
      What I'd propose is that we try to let scripture explain scripture wherever possible and then try to give an honest appraisal of whether or not our "special definitions" we have infused into the meaning of several words in the chapter really makes more sense than the more common definitions of these words.  We could start with general ideas that we can all agree on (hopefully) and then check those ideas as either more or less likely to fit the ideas created from other parts of the chapter that depend on special definitions. I think this will help us evaluate whether we have built a doctrine upon the more likely or the less likely meaning of the words that Jesus used.
    • By Kurt
      Why did Jack cry? Maybe it was because he realized the old will get young again....JWs do have the Truth...and soon everyone will see that.....
    • By PeterR
      So if this is the basis for your belief, then probably what you'll want to do is first of all find out which bible book your foundational scripture is in. (It's Exodus by the way.)
      Ex 1:6 - Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.
      It's not a complicated scripture.
      Let me ask you this. If you die in 2017 and all your brothers and all your generation also die at some point, what does "generation" mean if you don't impose any weirdness on the text? Do your precise birth and death times change the fundamental meaning of the word generation?
      Of course there are overlaps in a "generation". The only possible way for there not to be overlaps would be for each generation to have a batch of children be born at the same minute of a certain year, and die at a simultanous minute of a later year.
      But does your grandfather suddenly become part of your generation just because your life overlapped with him? Does that overlap of a few years between you and your brothers give latitude to distort the language to allow for President Kennedy to be of your generation even if your life overlapped with him?
    • By PeterR
      You would be asking the wrong question Anna.
      You need to ask him whether someone could be disfellowshipped for NOT believing it after baptism.
      If he says no, he is either misinformed, forgetful, or lying.
      Now I grant you, not every elder will apply the letter of the law (although in a JC it's more likely because of the group dynamics). But that there are procedures in place to allow for DF'ing someone who refuses to believe in particular teachings is very real.
      Let me ask you Anna - if I could prove beyond doubt that this was true would you accept it, or would you continue to make light of it?
      If you are determined to see only what you want to see I have no agenda to change that. But I can assure you that I do not speak from a position of ignorance or partial information in this regard.
    • By The Librarian
      Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.
      2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.
      3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.
      4 I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace:
      5 I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me.
      6 Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream.
      7 Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.
      8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,
      9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
      10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
      11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
      12 The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.
      13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
      14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
      15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
      16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
      17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
      18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
      19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.
      20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
      21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
      22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
      23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
      24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
      25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
      26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
      27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.
      28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.
      29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
      30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
      31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
      32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
      33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
      34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
      35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
      36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
      37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
      Hebrew interlinear
    • Guest Nicole
    • By Bible Speaks
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. "Your house and your kingdom will be secure forever before you; your throne will be firmly established forever.”’” (2 Samuel 7:16) NWT

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