What does a person have to do to survive Armageddon?

[TrueTomHarley]

12 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Do you think it's at all possible that Jesus could communicate with the anointed directly? 

Yes

12 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

And not rely on a centralized GB?

Yes.

12 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

If that were the case, would that be acceptable to those taking the lead? 

It had better be. But these three questions miss the one obvious fact that makes them all irrelevant.

How would they know? Because the individual annointed ones say so? The day that this happens I am going to reveal here that I am also annointed and I have been lurking here for months. I now have a pronouncement. It is that my fellow annointed @Witness is all wet and no one should listen to her, and that @James Thomas Rook Jr. is next in line as replacement in case someone bites the dust. He has many many many complaints. It is time to put them all on the front burner.

If anyone doesn't believe it, I will threaten to summon Jesus' white horse, who is not exactly Mr. Ed. I'm annointed. I said something. Jump!!

 

 

[Anna]

@Gone Fishing

We can take this whole survival thing further into the stream of time. Even after being judged as sheep, and after entering the new world, our survival will always depend on obeying Jehovah’s instructions, since we will always be dependent on him to stay alive. Still, I don’t think that warrants us thinking that there will be some kind of “special logistical” instructions at Armageddon, as if Jehovah needs us in one particular place, or do some particular thing in order to be able to save us. Or in order for us to prove we are worthy of salvation. Like one more test on top of a test. And especially not when the reason for that is used to “encourage” us to be obedient now.....  

Just my thoughts

[Evacuated]

12 hours ago, Anna said:

in order for us to prove we are worthy of salvation

Well I think we all know this will never happen. The undeserved kindness behind the ransom is the key to salvation, but as we know, it has terms. That's the intent of Jesus words at Matt 7:21.

It doesn't matter how far you extend my illustration through the stages of a journey (of which "landing safely" is only the first), there will always be some set of protocols to ensure a safe passage. Even those who had no sin had a need to conform to Jehovah's direction, even if the instruction was just to determine a willingness to do just that. This was demonstrated with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden when the general statement at Gen.1:29 was modified by the detail at Gen 2:17.

Just because a potential "great crowd" of faithful (thus far) Christians have commenced washing "their robes.... in the blood of the Lamb" and:

• have not been fooled by declarations of "peace and security" ,
• are the surving "flesh" when the dismantling of Babylon is "cut short",
• witness (with understanding) the shaking of the "powers of the heavens",
• are judged as "sheep", 
• experience Jehovah's protection and deliverance through the attack of "Gog of the land of Magog" whilst witnessing the gathering of [Jesus'] "chosen ones" (whatever form that takes),

this does not then exclude them from any need to follow instructions from Jehovah, however these are channeled to them for the future.

There will be no "faithful and discreet slave" as we know it once these expected events have taken place. But there will be an arrangement to continue "the journey" safely, under Jehovah's direction. Ez.45:7.

So do I think that being reminded that obedience to Jehovah's instructions through congregational arrangements is a way that the Governing Body is saying “you better obey the Slave NOW, or you’re gonna die later.”, "like some kind of soft threat you make to a child"?

You could probably spin any knd of instruction Jehovah gives through an agency in that manner.

There are all sorts of points that could be made to address this matter but, for now, I prefer the statement made by (even) a demon-possessed woman when she stated of Paul and others preaching the good news, "“These men are slaves of the Most High God and are proclaiming to you the way of salvation" Acts 16:17.

This seems to embody the essence of what was more acceptably expressed at Zephaniah 8:23: “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”

 

[Anna]

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

It doesn't matter how far you extend my illustration through the stages of a journey (of which "landing safely" is only the first), there will always be some set of protocols to ensure a safe passage.

Exactly, and this is what I tried to explain in the post above, when I said  “We can take this whole survival thing further into the stream of time. Even after being judged as sheep, and after entering the new world, our survival will always depend on obeying Jehovah’s instructions, since we will always be dependent on him to stay alive”.

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

There will be no "faithful and discreet slave" as we know it once these expected events have taken place. But there will be an arrangement to continue "the journey" safely, under Jehovah's direction. Ez.45:7.

So do I think that being reminded that obedience to Jehovah's instructions through congregational arrangements is a way that the Governing Body is saying “you better obey the Slave NOW, or you’re gonna die later.”, "like some kind of soft threat you make to a child"?

You could probably spin any kind of instruction Jehovah gives through an agency in that manner

Yes indeed, and it has apparently already been spun a certain way, according to those two paragraphs.

However, thinking about it logically does that kind of a spin make sense?  I see several problems with it. If we are obedient to the Slave now, we will be judged as sheep obviously, and if we are obedient now, it follows we will be obedient during Armageddon, as per the reasoning in par. 20.  So this is a closed circle, since one naturally leads to the other. Therefore on that basis, what is actually the point of those two paragraphs? And what is to say we are at liberty to apply Jehovah's saving arrangements in the past to what he will do in the future?

Because how can it be categorically said that there will be instructions given to us through some centralized body or agent? Or even congregation overseers? Am I to imagine elder John is going to receive a vision which he will then relay to the rest of the little group?

To go into even more detail, it was different  with the Israelites for example, coming out of Egypt, following Moses. This kind of a scenario will obviously be impossible during Armageddon, although similar scenes are depicted in our literature. However, if you think about it, something like that is not even remotely possible because:

How could we be organized into one large group when we are so scattered? Although we are one nation symbolically we are not one nation physically. The next congregation from us is 10 miles away, and even if we were grouped according to circuits, we might have a couple of thousand, with the next couple of thousand in the next city, miles away. On top of that, how are we going to travel with no fuel, (and with the frail and infirm) since there will be no one to operate the stations, and no electricity to pump the fuel out as there will be no one operating the generators, and no one supplying the fuel as there will be no drivers and there will be no pilots to operate planes, no captains to operate ships, and no one to operate the oil rigs.  How are we going to get any messages forwarded across miles and miles of land and sea? This is a very complex modern infrastructure we live in at the present time, and it is wholly reliant on workers, who will be dead. And on top of these obvious logistical and communicational problems, there will be masses of rotting corpses, poisoning the water and air, to contend with. What are we going to be drinking and eating while we are figuring this out? I am sure we can all think of so much more. So what I am trying to say is that it goes without saying we will evidently have to rely directly on Jehovah and on miracles he will probably perform at that time. It stands to reason we will all be direct witnesses of these miracles, and will experience them personally, without them going through some human centralized group, or agents.

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

or now, I prefer the statement made by (even) a demon-possessed woman when she stated of Paul and others preaching the good news, "“These men are slaves of the Most High God and are proclaiming to you the way of salvation" Acts 16:17.

If we are already judged as sheep before Armageddon, would it stand to reason that we would suddenly become disobedient, if we have proved by our life (on the basis of which we were judged) that we were worthy of being judged as sheep by our previous obedience?  It doesn’t make logical sense we would suddenly see the need to not follow instructions, especially after we have obviously been following instructions to get to where we are that point (judged as sheep) and especially when we had just witnessed the supernatural manifestations of the last prophesy being  fulfilled.  If we are honest, are many of us not already psyched up and eagerly waiting for some “special pronouncement” by the slave, so much so that most of us would be willing to move to Timbuktu at the drop of a hat, if those were the instructions given to us by them? And are we not sitting on the edge of our seats in anticipation and hint of any significant turn of events on the world scene any moment?

Wouldn’t it have been much simpler to say something along the lines of: “How will Jehovah preserve alive those who have been judged as sheep during Armageddon? We will have to wait and see. One thing we can be sure of is that Jehovah knows how to deliver people of Godly devotion. At that time all of us will most likely experience supernatural manifestations on our behalf, and we will want to put our full trust in Jehovah’s protective and life giving powers. Of course it won’t end there, as we will continue to do so after the dust of Armageddon has settled, and in to the distant future"......etc.

So I am still trying to figure out the motive behind those two paragraphs....

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Zephaniah 8:23: “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”

This is the scripture I always go to, to explain why it's reasonable to expect that God has an organized and a united people on earth today.

[Melinda Mills]

" It seems that all true Christians have equal access to the Bible, prayer and holy spirit. "  - Anna

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(Psalm 65:2) 2 O Hearer of prayer, to you people of all sorts will come.

(Proverbs 2:1-22) My son, if you accept my sayings And treasure up my commandments,  2 By making your ear attentive to wisdom And inclining your heart to discernment;  3 Moreover, if you call out for understanding And raise your voice for discernment;  4 If you keep seeking for it as for silver, And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures;  5 Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah, And you will find the knowledge of God.  6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; From his mouth come knowledge and discernment. 

(John 3:16) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

(Revelation 22:17) And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, “Come!” and let anyone hearing say, “Come!” and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take life’s water free.

(Joel 2:28,29)  28 After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, And your sons and your daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, And your young men will see visions. 29 And even on my male slaves and female slaves I will pour out my spirit in those days.

Everyone has equal opportunity to come to Jehovah and receive help.

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I wanted to send this last night but it disappeared. Thanks to admin for restoring it.

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This morning I was writing a post and something miraculous happened - I was trying to remember a phrase in the Bible, but did not know where it was in the Bible.  I however continued with my writing, when I looked for the scripture for the next point I realized that I was being helped because the verse above the scripture had the phrase I was looking for to support the previous point. (I really did not know it was there I had seen it.)

This is not the first time I had experiences that show that Jehovah wants us to help others put confidence in Him and his Word.  God's Word is alive and exerts power.  Sometimes after I research things to help others I often understand them better or things become clearer to me as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

thinking about it logically does that kind of a spin make sense?

What kind of spin? The spin you propose? or something else?

2 hours ago, Anna said:

how can it be categorically said that there will be instructions given to us through some centralized body or agent?

What is the purpose of this type of question? If you believe that Jehovah is providing effective guidance now through his arrangements, as he always has in history,  then there is no reason to doubt that appropriate guidance will be provided by him regardless of logistical challenges speculated upon at this point in time. We do know the meaning of his name don't we?

2 hours ago, Anna said:

we will evidently have to rely directly on Jehovah and on miracles he will probably perform at that time.

Isn't that what we are doing now??

2 hours ago, Anna said:

If we are already judged as sheep before Armageddon, would it stand to reason that we would suddenly become disobedient, if we have proved by our life (on the basis of which we were judged) that we were worthy of being judged as sheep by our previous obedience?

Not sure of the purpose of this question in the light of the ancient advice at 1Cor.10:31 "So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." (Not gender specific either).

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Wouldn’t it have been much simpler to say something along the lines of

Do you mean "the faithful slave should have said etc etc etc....."

2 hours ago, Anna said:

figure out the motive

Perhaps this helps: "they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account," Heb 13:17.

[Anna]

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

What kind of spin? The spin you propose? or something else?

No, no, NO! I protest! I did not propose any spin. In fact part of this whole debate is me trying to reason that no spin should be put on it at all.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

then there is no reason to doubt that appropriate guidance will be provided by him regardless of logistical challenges speculated upon at this point in time. We do know the meaning of his name don't we?

Yes, and I don’t doubt it at all. It just irritates me a little when what is speculation, is presented as fact.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

7 hours ago, Anna said:

we will evidently have to rely directly on Jehovah and on miracles he will probably perform at that time.

Isn't that what we are doing now??

I would say yes and no. Many rely on Jehovah through the Slave.  What I was meaning “rely directly” was that this reliance will be between individuals and Jehovah only. We have a tendency to do  ”group saving”   through phrases such as “Jehovah’s people as a whole”  “through the congregation arrangement”  etc.  There is nothing wrong with that at all, and is scriptural of course.  But Jesus indicates that this time it will be a little different. Romans14:12 “So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God” Rev 22:12 “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work". Matt. 24:41 “Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned....”.  So I was trying to indicate that concerning Armageddon, speculation on Jehovah  going through specific channels or agents to give us instructions  might be adding to what is not there...in spite of referencing Hebrew scriptures of how it used to be done etc.  As for miracles, I meant the kind of miracles that are not dependent on location or someones activity or that are done on behalf of a group. But the kind of miracle where you are standing in the middle of a war zone by yourself, with bullets flying and bombs going off and you are untouched, Marvel movie style. And then the miracle of actual survival during the aftermath, which I went into already a little.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

7 hours ago, Anna said:

If we are already judged as sheep before Armageddon, would it stand to reason that we would suddenly become disobedient, if we have proved by our life (on the basis of which we were judged) that we were worthy of being judged as sheep by our previous obedience?

Not sure of the purpose of this question in the light of the ancient advice at 1Cor.10:31 "So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." (Not gender specific either).

The purpose of that question was based on this reasoning in par 20.

Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt

obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3)

If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly

in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father,

 

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Do you mean "the faithful slave should have said etc etc etc....."

I mean the paragraph would have been better without speculations and without the "if's", and the implication that we are so shallow as to obey merely to save our lives, without being granted the dignity that our obedience surely has deeper motives, such as our love for Jehovah and his sovereignty, appreciation for the ransom,  and our desire to please him. Therefor we shouldn't need the  "if's" but rather "because" .

Am I making too much of a big deal out of this...?

I think I need @TrueTomHarley to put things into perspective. Because to be honest, all I want to do during Armageddon is hide in the closet and pray like crazy, and afterwards sit on a pile of rubble, hopefully with my loved ones, have crows bring us food and water and just relax for a week or so. Because we will probably all be physically so tired and too emotionally drained and elated at the same time, to even comprehend any instructions blasted at us through a loudspeaker.

 

 

.

[Anna]

6 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Sometimes after I research things to help others I often understand them better or things become clearer to me as well.

Yes,  agree.

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

On 11/22/2017 at 5:34 PM, Anna said:

Good point. I wonder why this wasn't used as an example rather than Isaiah? I guess because we apply it to getting out of false religion and keep ourselves without spot from the world. But my main dispute really is that this is being used in a kind of foreboding way as a reason everyone should be obedient and cooperate with the Slave now.

As predicted in the Scriptures, I imagine that confidence in a certain guide will gradually decrease, more and more.
So writing phrases like "Strange instructions could come" means saying "you always obey".
Moreover, "closing in the congregations" is a play of words because it does not mean "closing in the Halls of the Kingdom". If the people of God will be scattered all over the world until the last moment, no specific instruction will be given (in fact, needs and situations vary from country to country). So cite Isaiah by applying "inner rooms" to congregations can mean everything and nothing.
If you lock yourself in a Kingdom Hall and this Kingdom Hall is destroyed, it means "you did not understand the instructions."
Closure to the congregation, on the other hand, is a way to say "You have to trust in Jehovah."
If something bad happens, it means you did not trust Jehovah.

Instead, the Bible explains that the people of God will be gathered (from all over the world) to a specific spot on Earth just before Armageddon. In this case the instructions (which may concern first aid, hygiene, food sharing and other things) will be clear and simple. They will not be strange.

But this information is "apostasy" is not it?
So very few will pay attention.
Alternatively, wait for these "strange" instructions.
It will be very reasonable to think that people who are resident all over the world, with different geographies, different climates, different needs, and isolated siblings far from everyone and everyone, will receive "specific instructions".
Let's say "close in the congregations" and so we are sure we will not go wrong (if something goes wrong, the fault is what you did not trust in Jehovah).

Think about Israel's history and how it was saved from Egypt, or about Lot and how it was saved from Sodom and Gomorrah.
Think of the words "for our education" - Romans 15: 4
Reflect on the words "fully prepared" - 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
Perhaps the instructions to survive Armageddon (perhaps) are already written in the Bible.

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, Anna said:

think I need @TrueTomHarley to put things into perspective. Because to be honest, all I want to do during Armageddon is hide in the closet and pray like crazy, and afterwards sit on a pile of rubble, hopefully with my loved ones, have crows bring us food and

Have the crows bring her an extra sandwich and more ink for her pen.

[TrueTomHarley]

On 11/22/2017 at 7:34 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Why could they not have reasoned similarly? Let Jesus speak himself, if he has something to say! Why could they not have refused to listen to Paul the Middleman? When the verse says "Listen to him" it is not speaking of Paul.

If we step outside the world of Bible believing people, we find this is exactly how those of critical though (higher criticism) regard Paul. They practically treat him as a person who founded a separate religion, reinterpreting the words and teachings of Jesus - linking them to OT events that Jesus himself never linked them to.

It brings to mind those who rail at the marked difference in direction from Russell to Rutherford, from Rutherford to Knorr, from Knorr to the GB. They are fixated on men. If they are going to harp on this, tell them to not be so namby-pamby. Tell them to follow through. Tell them to ignore Paul and focus on only what Jesus said. 

It is the same with those like @Noble Berean who started this line of discussion, with the GB. It cannot be that God works through that group of men? Don't be such a wimp! Extend your logic to Jesus and Paul. Take your Bible and rip out every book after Acts.

[Evacuated]

14 hours ago, Anna said:

The purpose of that question was based on this reasoning in par 20.

Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt

obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3)

If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly

in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father,

Then 1Cor 10:31 stands. The concept of  judgement on whether humans are classed figuratively as sheep or goats is drawn from the parable which shows that judgement to be based on how they treat Christs "brothers" (Matt 25:31-46).. So, respect and solidarity for and with anointed Christians, and particularly the Governing Body, is a key component of the favourable judgement.

But if anyone thinks that just standing by an organisational arrangement serves as the sole ticket to Armageddon survival....well..... let me know how that works out, although the "probably" is starting to look a bit "probably won't" from here.

I am looking at a whole range of other scriptural criteria as well, (like Mic 6:8), on this issue, and I am going to continue to be very grateful for the provision of a shepherding arrangement to help and support me in the discerning and applying of those requirements. To me that is the part of the purpose of the congregation as described for example at Eph 4:11-16.

On that basis I cannot see that encouragement to be obedient to instructions and directions by means of the Christian congregation through these crtical times would be in any way a sinister or underhand scheme to over assert authority, or to somehow direct attention away from our need to have complete dependence on the "one who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen?na".

So, I do believe we are kicking into the same goal are we not??.............