The truth about Armageddon...

[Chioke Lin]

43 minutes ago, Peter Carroll said:

There is no confusion in the JW.ORG

Of course not. The Org has made it clear where, separations should be made. But's that's not what's happening here, isn't it. Even the lexicons are being misapplied. 

There's no such thing as God being evil. The lexicons are not giving that impression by certain words. We are making the bible out to be confusing.

[BroRando]

4 hours ago, Witness said:

https://www.abarim-publications.com/Dictionary/ht/ht-w-he.html

One should note when the little character is taken from the tetragramation יהוה it changes the meaning from (He Causes to Become) to:

(הוה HWH) - Disaster: A wicked or disastrous event. [Hebrew and Aramaic] [df: hyh] KJV (21): calamity, wickedness, perverse, mischief - Strongs: H1942 (הַוָּה), H1943 (הֹוָה), H1962 (הַיָּה) as in Yahweh YHWH to HWH or יהוה to הוה

You are a fraud and now I caught you by your tail.  For the readers, here what she is hiding. Jehovah is correct. Why? Because whether one chops up the Name in English (Jehovah), Hebrew (Yahweh), or the Tetrgramaton (יהוה)

Jehovah's Enemies will suffer calamity and destruction. JEHOVAH is able to SAVE those who showed love for His Name.  Hebrews 6:10

•  H1942 (הַוָּה) - engulfing ruin, destruction, calamity
•  H1943 (הֹוָה) - ruin, disaster
•  H1962 (הַיָּה) - destruction, calamity

[Arauna]

21 hours ago, Witness said:

hovah - disaster/ruin

Summary of Nehemia Gordon (Scholar regarding the name Yehovah):   I  am often asked whether God’s name, Yehovah, is related to the Hebrew word for "disaster". The question starts off with the observation that the Hebrew word hovah means "disaster, calamity".

This word “hovah” appears three times in the Tanach, once in Isaiah and twice in a single verse in Ezekiel: "Evil is coming upon you which you will not know how to charm away; disaster (hovah) is falling upon you which you will not be able to appease; coming upon you suddenly is ruin of which you know nothing." (Isaiah 47:11) "Calamity (hovah) shall follow calamity (hovah), and rumor follow rumor. Then they shall seek vision from the prophet in vain; instruction shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the elders." (Ezekiel 7:26) Since hovah means "disaster" or "calamity", I am often asked, doesn't this mean that Yehovah also means "disaster" or "calamity".

I guess this makes sense to those innocent of basic Hebrew grammar, but in the Hebrew language this makes no sense. This would be like saying that the English word "assume" is derived from the word "ass" because when you ass-u-me you make an ass of you and me. Someone actually said this many years ago, and they were dead serious. Of course, an examination of any historical English dictionary will reveal that "assume" actually comes from the Latin verb "assume(re)" and not from the English word for a donkey.

Let's look at some Hebrew basics before we get ourselves in trouble assuming. With a few exceptions, every word in the Hebrew language has a three-letter root, something proven in the 11th century by the Spanish rabbi, Yonah Ibn Janah. Modern linguistics have confirmed this, observing that the three-letter root is a basic characteristic of all Semitic languages.

Whole Roots:

Most Hebrew roots are "whole" roots meaning all three letters of the root are present regardless of how the root is used in different grammatical forms. For example, the Hebrew root SH.M.R. has the basic meaning "to guard". Hebrew can use this root in dozens of ways, each with a different shade of meaning, such as the verbs SHaMaRti "I guarded" and hiShaMeR "be careful" (be on guard), the noun miSHMeRet meaning "duty" (which a person has to be on guard to keep), and the names SheMeR and SHoMRon. As a "whole" root, the letters shin, mem, resh, are always present in words derived from this root.

Hollow Roots:

The opposite of a "whole" root, is a "hollow" root. In "hollow" roots, one or more of the three letters of the root can be absent in certain grammatical forms. For example, the root BNH "to build" loses the third letter of the root in the verb baniti (spelled BNYty) "I built". In this form of the verb, the H of BNH drops and is replaced by a Yod.

If you didn't know about hollow verbs, and saw the word baniti, you might think the root was BNY, when in fact it is BNH.  .............Yehovah is from a Hollow Root. The name Yehovah derives from the three-letter root HYH which means "to be". We know this from Ex 3:14 in which the Almighty explains his name as "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh". The word Ehyeh is an "imperfect" verb from the root HYH meaning "to be". In later Hebrew, the "imperfect" form took on the meaning of "future", but in Biblical Hebrew it primarily expresses a repetitive action. In plain English, Ehyeh means "I am now and I will continue to be in the future". This is why Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh can be translated as "I am that which I am", but also as "I will be that which I will be". Both of these translations are correct, even if they are a bit inaccurate. An accurate translation would be: "I am now, and will continue to be in the future, that which I am now, and will be continue to be in the future". That's quite a mouthful, and you can see why most translations prefer to dumb it down.

I just remembered - One of the first things I realized when I studied Arabic (also a Semitic language with 3 root consonants in most words) ...is that most verbs already assume that an existing person is carrying out the verb. So one does not say : I am playing this or that.  Most sentences are: I play..... the AM is not in the sentence. 

This is why a rare form of hollow root is used to express the I AM when speaking of Jehovah.

[BroRando]

8 hours ago, Chioke Lin said:

So, we need to be mindful to separate Jesus and Jehovah in English form in the NT.

Ton theon is speaking about Jehovah which means "the God" and the second meantion in not ton theon but rather theos which is Jesus that means "a god".  "No Man has Seen theon (the God) at Any time" (John 1:18) 

Detail explaination. The truth about John 1:1 has long been hidden from the masses. Find out why False Religion has hidden one of the very first translations of the Greek Language used some 1900 years ago. The Sahidic Coptic translation.

The imperfect ἦν (was) is applied to the Word and theos (a god) but never applied to (ton theon). The Word is a god with a beginning but (ton theon) is eternal and always existed.  Everything in the first three clauses has a definite article with one exception. The exception of leaving out the definite article in relating to (theos) de-emphasizes it to (a god). This was done by design. The Apostle John personally heard Jesus calling his Father in (John 17:3) "You, the only true theon" https://biblehub.com/text/john/17-3.htm. It can't be dismissed. The word (only) can also read (alone) which is singular. "You alone, the true theon"

Another supporting scripture is the quote from Jesus after his resurrection... Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my theon and your theon." (John 20:17) Again, theon referring to the God that Jesus was ascending too. https://biblehub.com/text/john/20-17.htm

 

[Chioke Lin]

1 hour ago, BroRando said:

on theon is speaking about Jehovah which means "the God" and the second meantion in not ton theon but rather theos which is Jesus that means "a god". 

I made no distinction between Théo and Kyrios, other than to show how some might confuse the Hebrew language by the application of the Tetragrammaton.

It appeared the lexicon was being mishandled by the application of some words and letter formation. It's good that we all have started to readjust our application of the Tetragrammaton. That's a great thing, especially when the commentator "Arauna" made such a fine presentation.

I simply meant, YHWH can be used to mean Jesus, which we know is incorrect.

Norm Mundhenk
The author recently retired as a UBS Translation Consultant, having served in Papua New Guinea and Indonesia.

In the opening verses of Mark there is a significant quotation from the Old Testament. Mark says that it is from Isaiah, and the most important part of the quotation is from Isaiah, though it begins with phrases that seem to be from Exodus and Malachi.

“See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way; the voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’” (Mark 1.2-3 NRSV)

There are at least three characters in this quotation, all of whom we meet in the first line: “I,” “my messenger,” and “you.” It seems clear that Mark intends the quotation to be understood in such a way that “I” is God, “you” is Jesus, and “my messenger” is John the Baptist. In the key part of the quotation, then, which comes from Isa 40.3, “the voice” clearly refers to John and “the Lord” is
Jesus. John carries out his own work of preparing the Lord’s way by crying out to everyone else to prepare the way.

In Isa 40, “the Lord” is clearly God himself. Not only is this clear from the context, but the Hebrew text has YHWH, and “the way of YHWH/the Lord” is used in parallel with “a highway for our God” in both Hebrew and the Septuagint (LXX). It seems highly significant, then, that Mark (and Matthew and Luke; John also uses the first line of the parallelism) has felt free to apply this passage to Jesus, altering the second parallel line so that instead of referring to the highway/ paths “of our God” it refers to “his” paths. Since in both Old Testament and New Testament the two lines clearly refer to the same person, the change to a pronoun in the New Testament does not change the meaning of the original.

Jesus is Lord
This is just one of many places in the New Testament where an OT passage using the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is applied to Jesus. Many translators may not realize how important this fact is for our work. Let me try to spell out the significance of what the NT writers have done.
Jesus is frequently called “Lord” in the New Testament. The Greek word kurios can of course mean simply “sir,” and in many places (especially in the Gospels, such as Luke 9.61; John 4.11; 5.7; 8.11; 9.36; 20.15) it seems clear that this is the intended sense, even though Jesus is the one addressed.

But, I do get your point as well.

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, Chioke Lin said:

ven the lexicons are being misapplied

I need to warn you that there are apostates on here - unfortunately. ....they twist things very much.  I am glad to see that you stand up to them in such an admirable way and correct any deviant thoughts.  Satan is a deceiver - so a thing may look right but on closer inspection it is leading the one without discernment astray.

I nevertheless have used this forum to find subjects to think about - and often do.... It is interesting to see things from your perspective.... 

[Witness]

4 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

At Revelation 9:11, however, the word “Abaddon” is used as the name of “the angel of the abyss.” The corresponding Greek name Apollyon means “Destroyer.”

 

13 hours ago, Witness said:

Job 26:6 - Sheol is naked before God,
and Abaddon has no covering.

Prov 15:11 - Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the Lord—
how much more, human hearts.

Prov 27:20 - Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied,
and people’s eyes are never satisfied.

You know, you have totally disregarded what GOD'S WORD says about Abaddon.  You are saying that Jesus has no "covering", and that Jesus is never satisfied, just as Sheol the place of death is never satisfied. 

Sheol's definitions - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h7585/nkjv/wlc/0-1/

1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

   1. the underworld

   2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead

      1. place of no return

      2. without praise of God

      3. wicked sent there for punishment

      4. righteous not abandoned to it

      5. of the place of exile (fig)

      6. of extreme degradation in sin

By listening to the lies of men who say Jesus is Abaddon, the King of the abyss, you have compared Jesus Christ with wickedness, sin, death, and without praise of God. Who really fits that description?  Satan?  

Yes.  

There is no sharing of light with darkness.  He is not the King over darkness and death. 

What happens when a lamp is brought into a dark room?  It destroys darkness.

Jesus is the Word. The Word is TRUTH.  TRUTH is LIGHT and imparts LIFE.  Lies are DARKNESS.  The abyss is a bottomless pit of darkness.  It is slanderous to say that Jesus is the king, the ruler over darkness.  He is not both the author of life and light, and the author of death and darkness, that results from absence of truth and light.

4 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

At Revelation 19:11-16 he is clearly represented as God’s appointed Destroyer or Executioner.

The sword he wields in the battle of Armageddon, (Rev 1:16) is defined in God’s word:

“And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God”  Eph 6:17

The Word of God is even sharper than a literal sword:

“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”  Heb 4:12

Jesus will not be carrying a literal sword to slaughter humans in your Armageddon.  He carries only the Word of God, which is truth and light.

How clear it is by the lies of the Wt., that it is at war against Jesus Christ and the "remaining ones of her seed".  Gen 3:15, Rev 12:15,17  It is against the Word of Truth, Light and Life - the Son of God - by claiming he is the Destroyer of life.  John 10:10

The Beast of Rev 13:1,2 emerges from darkness, from the abyss, the place devoid of life and light in the Word of God. 

“When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.”  Rev 11:7

In this scripture, the Beast is making war with the anointed who speak against the lying doctrines of a false prophet of Rev 13:11,12. (Rev 11:1-4; Zech 4:11,13-14)

The Beast is also said to come out of the Sea, comprised of wickedness found in the hearts of men.  (Isa 57:20) (Rev 13:1)

The abyss is compared to the sea of wickedness and darkness. Who gives the Beast from the sea, its power?  If Jesus was king over the abyss, it would be he, that would grant it power.

“Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.”  Rev 13:2

Satan is king over darkness, and that darkness is the abyss. He can give the power of darkness to anyone he wants. 

And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. ⁷ Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.” Luke 4:6

Jesus is described as the Light of the world, the very world that Satan had been given authority and rulership over. (John 12:31)   “In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. ⁵ And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.”  John 1:4-5

But you want to put Jesus in charge of spreading darkness by saying he rules over the abyss as king and Destroyer of life and light.

The Beast from the sea of wickedness and darkness, is the man of lawlessness – Rev 13:18.  2 Thess 2:3,4 tells us that this composite “man” sits and rules over God’s saints/anointed, which is happening in the organization with the elder body. The anointed are the “living stones” of the spiritual temple of God.  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17)   They are found “captive” in the Beast from the sea of wickedness – the organization. They are fed lies about themselves and about the necessary need to be under the rulership of "Gentiles" (Rev 11:1,2; Ezek 44:6-9)

What will be the end of this Beast?

“And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.”  2 Thess 2:8

The breath of the mouth of Christ is the Spirit of Truth and Light.  Light overcomes darkness.  Carrying a lamp into a dark room consumes darkness. It snuffs it out.  It is with the Word of God that Satan’s Beast will be destroyed by.  It is the “man of lawlessness” (Rev 13:18) that Jesus will destroy, by the sword of the Spirit – the Word of Truth. 

Jer 23:29 - “Is not My word like a fire?” says the Lord,
“And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?

John 12:48 – “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”

The Beast from the sea, its false prophet and Satan are thrown into the lake of FIRE of condemnation.  They will be not literally burning as Wt pictures portray. Rev 20:10

Death that is found in the abyss where Satan is King, is destroyed by the Word of God, which is truth and light. (1 Cor 15:26) The abyss is not a literal place, but the aura of darkness, of not perceiving, devoid of all life in Jesus Christ.

“Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”  Rev 20:14

“Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.”  Rev 21:1

No more wickedness or wicked people. 

 ^“And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Rev 21:4

Open your eyes and stop drinking the Harlot's wine.  Rev 17:1,2,15  

 

 

 

 

[Witness]

Rev 9:11 - And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon( "destruction"), but in Greek he has the name  Apollyon ("destroyer").

The angel/destroyer of Destruction, who is the angel of the abyss, are found together, as a compatible pair.

So too, are Sheol and Abaddon. 

Prov 27:20 - Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied, and people's eyes are never satisfied.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Sheol's definitions - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h7585/nkjv/wlc/0-1/

1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

"PIT".  The abyss is the bottomless PIT.  

 

 

 

[BroRando]

4 hours ago, Chioke Lin said:

Jesus is Lord
This is just one of many places in the New Testament where an OT passage using the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is applied to Jesus. Many translators may not realize how important this fact is for our work. Let me try to spell out the significance of what the NT writers have done.

Good point!  I come across this with trintarians and members of Christendom. One would need to consider the text to sort it out.  Or just read the New World Translation and compare. I did come across something that may enhance your perpective as it did mine.  

I am sure you are aware of how (Rev 1:8) is often twisted.  A good majority of Greek Scritpure in the NT comes from the Hebrew Scripture of the OT.

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD (God Jehovah Isa 44:6; Gen 17:1; Exo 6:3 ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."(Rev 1:8 KJV)

Earlier versions had LORD in all captials giving us witness marks that the Tetragrammaton was removed. It's tougher today since they went one more step and now simply have Lord.  But the cross references are there for all to see and read.

 

[BroRando]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Rev 9:11 - And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon( "destruction"), but in Greek he has the name  Apollyon ("destroyer").

Jesus is the Destroyer... 

Mark 1:24

“What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God!”

Luke 4:34

“Ah! What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.”

[Witness]

1 hour ago, BroRando said:

Jesus is the Destroyer... 

Mark 1:24

“What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God!”

And how did the demons answer him?  Tell me what he said!  You are putting more stock in the words of demons, than the words of Jesus, the Word of God!   You also, Arauna!  What lies in your hearts?  Do you revel in destruction of every human on this earth by the very person who sacrificed his own life to SAVE lives?  

I really can’t believe you reject all scripture, all proof.  Oh wait, I can believe it.  The doctrine of your false prophets is far more important than the teachings of Jesus Christ. (Matt 15:9)  My goodness, man. Your battle against scripture is insane.  And your battle will get you nowhere with God and His beloved Son.

There is a difference in the meaning of the word “destroy” used in Mark 1:24, compared to 1 Cor 15:26.

The demons are using apollymi, which means:

A.               to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin

B.               render useless

C.                to kill

D.               to declare that one must be put to death

E.                metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

F.                to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed

 

1 Cor 15:26, where Jesus “destroys” death, uses the word katargeō , which means –

I.to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative

A.               to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency

B.               to deprive of force, influence, power

II.to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

 .                 to cease, to pass away, be done away

A.               to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one

B.               to terminate all intercourse with one

 

There is a difference in the meanings between the two words. 

John 10:10 - Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. ⁸ All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. ⁹ I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. ¹⁰ The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”

The thief destroys – it is the same Greek word ( apollymi) that stems from “Apollyon”,  that the demons used in their question Jesus.  That word is not used in 1 Cor 15:26.  He is not the killer, “Apollyon” or “Abaddon”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BroRando]

Not only is Jesus the Destroyer but he grants Salvation to those who obey him.

10  Now I want you to know, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the clouda and all passed through the seab ²  and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea, ³  and all ate the same spiritual foodc ⁴  and all drank the same spiritual drink.d For they used to drink from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock meant the Christ.

 

 ¹⁰  Neither be murmurers,l as some of them murmured,m only to perish by the destroyer.

 

 ¹¹  Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to uso upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.p